When will (if ever) Leica M get something like Canon DGO sensor?

[mirekti]

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Now that we have M10-R for all of those hungry of MP, how about Leica give us something with more dynamic range? 
Some technology similar to what Canon is doing here: 

I'd gladly go back to 10 Megapixels, enough for my prints and one needs to start with something.
What are your thoughts on this?

[Good To Be Retired]

18 minutes ago, mirekti said:

Now that we have M10-R for all of those hungry of MP, how about Leica give us something with more dynamic range? 
Some technology similar to what Canon is doing here: 

I'd gladly go back to 10 Megapixels, enough for my prints and one needs to start with something.
What are your thoughts on this?

The only occasion I'm aware of where the megapixel race reversed itself involves centering on video, which doesn't seem to be a priority for Leica.  At least I hope not    So I don't see that happening.  Leica is a nitch product, but I don't think it's nitch enough for it's customer base to accept smaller mp sensors in a number significant enough to be commercially viable.  Could be wrong though.

And I don't see Leica competing with Canon in the sensor development arena.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Good To Be Retired

[mirekti]

7 minutes ago, Good To Be Retired said:

The only occasion I'm aware of where the megapixel race reversed itself involves centering on video, which doesn't seem to be a priority for Leica.  At least I hope not    So I don't see that happening.  Leica is a nitch product, but I don't think it's nitch enough for it's customer base to accept smaller mp sensors in a number significant enough to be commercially viable.  Could be wrong though.

And I don't see Leica competing with Canon in the sensor development arena.

Right, I agree this Canon’s sensor is aimed to video (and is apsc), but as said I’d gladly see 16 stops available for photo, even with less megapixels. Do you believe I belong to minority group within Leica M users who’d like to see files with more dynamic range instead of more megapixels?

[jaapv]

Do you REALLY need all those stops - there is no way that you can reproduce them in print or on screen.

[mirekti]

21 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Do you REALLY need all those stops - there is no way that you can reproduce them in print or on screen.

So what do you do when you have a scene like this and you don't want to recompose? If I remember well the sky wasn't white.

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Edited October 7, 2020 by mirekti

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Have you used a M10R? The DR is excellent compared to it's competitors. Certainly better than the Sony A7R3.

Actually it's hilarious to see Canon used as an example of a high DR camera........ 16 stops has been claimed several times by camera manufacturers. I'll believe it when there's truly independent tests of that claim.

Gordon

[mirekti]

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36 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Actually it's hilarious to see Canon used as an example of a high DR camera..

So true!!!

...the above was shot with M240, currently own an M10, but don't think R with so many megapixels improved drastically. 

[lct]

46 minutes ago, mirekti said:

So what do you do when you have a scene like this and you don't want to recompose? If I remember well the sky wasn't white.

You may wish to underexpose a bit and adjust in PP if needed (Digital CL, MATE, f/8, -1 EV). 

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[mirekti]

12 minutes ago, lct said:

You may wish to underexpose a bit and adjust in PP if needed (Digital CL, MATE, f/8, -1 EV). 

Yes, did try different tricks with what I had in the past, but that's simply not what I could get if the sensor had few more stops of dynamic range available.
Plus, bringing up details from shadows always brings up some noise and if that underexposed subject is a human skin  it starts to look horrible. 

Don't get me wrong, the tool we have is the most capable M we ever had, and top notch in digital camera history. However, Canon use it for its video (to be seen when tested), I believe Arri is using something similar in their cameras. Well, maybe it is time for Leica to make a step forward, and be a leader as it always had been and does something in that direction in photography, as simple as that. 

Leica M-R for, I guess, Resolution)
Leica M-M for Monochrome
Leica M-D for Dynamic Range

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by mirekti

[adan]

Every camera company has their own particular needs.

Leica, especially for the M, has a core need for sensor compatability in sharpness, vigetting and color-stains elimination, with legacy M film lenses. In a niche sales volume.

That means they cannot necessarily chase after the newest and greatest tech (often patented) from other sensor-makers, unless it also fulfills that niche requirement.

Leica may well be able to incorporate such advances as they mature, and Leica (and CMOSIS) figure out how to integrate them.

I like 24Mpixels, I would be happy with 18 like the M9, 12-15 would be enough if it came with a big jump in ISO - could accept a 48Mpixel sensor with pixel-binning or sRAW to an effective 12.

But 10 would no longer cut it, most of the time. Just too "2005."

A little more DR, without any cost in other qualities, is always nice, but since I come from shooting color still pictures on Kodachrome/Velvia, rather than movies on EastmanColor, I don't need as much DR as some. I like strong contrasts and dramatic black shadows - so long as I have some leeway to control them.

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, mirekti said:

So what do you do when you have a scene like this and you don't want to recompose? If I remember well the sky wasn't white.

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The same as photographers have been doing for ages: use fill-flash
Even if a 16 stop camera had managed to capture the detail in the sky (was there any? I doubt it), the result would have been out of the range of the paper you would be printing it on, making for a flat result or one with loss of tonal range.
Nor would you have been. able to display it properly on your monitor. Even HDR displays, as used in gaming and video production, cannot get 16 stops on  screen without compressing the DR. 
But I am sure that using mild HDR techniques in postprocessing could have improved the tones of this image. Quite hard to judge with the big black blob, though, as the main subject determines the quality of the image.
As it is, the moment that cameras matched negative film, as they do now, the need for more DR became  just for making exposure less critical, nothing more. Not to mention slide film.

As an example: here is an image where the camera managed to capture both the detail in the midday Mozambique sun in the background  and in the deep shadows of the kitchen. Th 13 stops or so of the CL were sufficient. But the need to compress the range to something you can see on your monitor pushed the image to the verge of a HDR look. More DR in the camera wouldn't have helped.

 

[farnz]

10 hours ago, mirekti said:

So what do you do when you have a scene like this and you don't want to recompose? If I remember well the sky wasn't white.

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There is more DR in the picture than even your eyes, with roughly 24 stops of DR, could handle so expecting a camera to be capable of recording the scene without blowing the highlights or the shadows or both is unrealistic even if the camera is specced at 16-stops.  

I suspect that if a camera was available with enough DR to record the picture without blowing out detail somewhere, say, 26 to 30 stops of DR, then it would be odd to look at because your brain knows what levels of light and shadow your eyes can handle and anything outside that would look a bit wrong.  It's the same as the multitude of poorly-produced HDR pictures we've all seen that just look odd.

As pointed out by Jaap earlier, fill-in flash is your friend.

Pete.

PS, there appears to be a piece of dirt on your sensor.

[mirekti]

1 hour ago, farnz said:

PS, there appears to be a piece of dirt on your sensor.

 Nothing that couldn’t be fixed in post.

[mirekti]

8 hours ago, adan said:

 I like strong contrasts and dramatic black shadows - so long as I have some leeway to control them.

Same here, but with addition of smooth highlights rollout.

[mike3996]

That's a video camera feature. No still oriented camera has that tech yet so it's pretty early to be demanding it from Leica.

[mirekti]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

The same as photographers have been doing for ages: use fill-flash

That’s an option, I agree, but I still don’t get it why it would be so bad to pull that light from sensor’s data. In fact, I am convinced it would be better. (Not counting for controlled lightning setup).

[Good To Be Retired]

14 hours ago, mirekti said:

Do you believe I belong to minority group within Leica M users who’d like to see files with more dynamic range instead of more megapixels?

How would I know, we've never even met

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

19 hours ago, mirekti said:

So true!!!

...the above was shot with M240, currently own an M10, but don't think R with so many megapixels improved drastically. 

*Drastically* is in the eye of the beholder but the M10R does have noticeably improved DR over the M10, plus less noise and more megapickles. I've tested them sided by side and the DR improvements are real.

But there's always going to be scenes with more DR than any camera can handle.

Gordon

[adan]

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/312525-this-is-why-i-bought-an-m10r/

M10-R highlight roll-off.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mirekti]

1 hour ago, adan said:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/312525-this-is-why-i-bought-an-m10r/

M10-R highlight roll-off.

Ok, so I stopped by on the forum after quite some time, and it'll end up with me buying M10-R, crazy.  Are the lines still crazy as in 2012/13 for M240? 
This looks really good.