This is why I bought an M10R

[mike3996]

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9 hours ago, dkmoore said:

It would be nice to have for indoor family shots at 1600 or lower ISO. I get along fine as is but typically have it set to 1600-3200 and wide open      
 

I would like to be able to stop down a few stops without jacking up the iso. 

What's your math in this idea?

In portraiture I would need a fast enough shutter speed to cease subject movement so an IBIS wouldn't  be a huge help here...

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[scott kirkpatrick]

On 8/30/2020 at 9:32 AM, Chaemono said:

I don't buy any of the arguments why IBIS can't be put in the M10-sized body M11. I keep it simple, Panasonic S1/S1R have IBIS, SL2 has IBIS. Panasonic S5 has IBIS, M11 will have IBIS. 

Here's a great article on all the details of OIS + IBIS technology by Dave Etchells at imaging-resource based on a visit to Olympus in Japan (how the Hell did he get there from Atlanta?).  ((Edit:  the trip that he is reporting took place in Oct 2019.  The article appeared a month ago.)

You can make a guess at the vertical dimensions of their latest M4/3 hardware, used in the 7.5 stop E-M1X and E-M1-iii.  But it still looks like a lot more than the pressure pad plus film thickness available behind the sensor surface inside an M body. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[jaapv]

Where would you have Leica find the space, Scott?

 

 

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[mike3996]

M5 resurrection, here we go!

[dkmoore]

7 hours ago, mike3996 said:

What's your math in this idea?

In portraiture I would need a fast enough shutter speed to cease subject movement so an IBIS wouldn't  be a huge help here...

I get motion blur at 1/60 of second and some blur at 1/90 if I’m at all lazy with technique. I am oftentimes relaxed and not paying much attention when taking casual family snaps. IBIS would help eliminate one error (me) rather than having two potential errors (subject movement). 
 

I don’t think a “fast” (what are we defining as fast?) shutter speed is required for portraiture. If a subject is posing or sitting I can keep my ISO lower and get perfectly focused shots down to 1/90-1/125. I think IBIS would open that to 1/30-1/60. 
 

would also be helpful for nighttime shots when you don’t have the tripod with you. For instance, I was hiking Acadia a couple of weeks ago and this would have come in handy on more than one occasion. 
 

I am very happy with the M10R by the way. There are only two changes that I can think of that would improve on the M10R which is quite amazing! It means the camera, for me, is pretty darn close to perfect. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by dkmoore

[mike3996]

Leica M is the most stable platform I've ever shot.

At the same time combining rangefinder and IBIS is a most interesting idea because when you compose and view TTL you get to see the motion compensation working and that can take away from the purity of moment.

I would frankly welcome an IBIS in a Leica too but considering size and battery life I wouldn't make the tradeoff!

[scott kirkpatrick]

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6 hours ago, jaapv said:

Where would you have Leica find the space, Scott?

 

 

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  I think you are misreading my comment.  There is no space, even with the stripping down that Olympus has done for their very small M5 iv.  Leica has already pushed the front lens mount out of the body by a mm or so without any of us noticing.  From the material at imaging resource that Olympus provided you see that the stuff out to the sides of the stabilized sensor is also big, and the computational supports required for a solution of the power that they offer takes another board the size of the two cpu/buffer boards that Leica uses in the M10s.

Edited August 31, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[Tailwagger]

Perhaps adding IBIS to the M is a pure packaging issue, but I am forced wonder if any implementation on the M is made more complicated by some lenses steep angles of incidence and the need for micro-lensing. 

[setuporg]

Why is SL2 so damn heavy?  Surely whatever it is, if forced into the M10 form factor, will have to be made of osmium, the heaviest metal on Earth per volume...

[tobey bilek]

On 8/21/2020 at 11:12 AM, jonoslack said:

Jono ask me to add this. Here are some further explanations:

I’m afraid I haven’t spelt out what I’m getting at on this post. The point is that you can shoot the M10-R in brighter light conditions than the M10, M or M9. Without using ND filters. 
This wouldn’t matter to everyone, but I often want to shoot with the lens wide open in very bright high contrast situations (generally people rather than boats!). 

The base ISO of the M10-R already gives you 1 stop advantage (100 vs M10’s 200). In addition to this you can recover a lot more information than you can with the previous M cameras. 

Thanks to Dr No for pointing this out so clearly in post #78
 

I've been trying to think of a simple way of describing it, and here it is

So This boat was shot with the 50 'lux at f1.4, and at 100 ISO at 1/4000th second

 

 

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This is the developed image with 2.35 stops of under exposure

 

and here they are side by side 

 

Here you are Scott:

All the best

 

 

 

My M10 has iso 100 on the dial where the M3 rewind was placed.    

[jaapv]

55 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Perhaps adding IBIS to the M is a pure packaging issue, but I am forced wonder if any implementation on the M is made more complicated by some lenses steep angles of incidence and the need for micro-lensing. 

Not really; the shape of the microlenses does not affect the size of the microlenses. All sensors have microlenses, it is just that Leica uses dedicated designs.

[Alexandre Petrescu]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Where would you have Leica find the space, Scott?

 

 

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Thanks for the photo of the inner situation.  Indeed the sensor looks to be situated the deepest possible - almost near the screen; and it is already a feat to have it there.  COmpared to my Canon camera, the sensor is really deeply situated.  (on Canon cameras one can see the horizontal plane of the sensor depicted on the body which is a symbol horizontal dash - stroke through an 'o'.)

I suspect the current IBIS sensors are held by several springs vertical against the sensor plane, incoming and outgoing.  They talk about 5-axis, as if these were airplanes needing stablization (rotation is included), or as if 3 dimensions were not enough in this world.  I think there is always a possibility to design differently the way in which the sensor is held by the potential springs.  It would be probably be sufficient to have just 3 such springs (or spring sets) and no spring behind the sensor.  Think of a horizontal platform on which one puts things and shakes the platform to see how the things resist (shaking is the inverse operation of stabilizing) - in this platform, instead of putting the pistons below it put them above it and attach with tubes that dont overcome the platform.   It's a matter of careful mechanical design, like watchwork, and they (Leica) might excel at it, even though probably not the sensor manufacturer.  This problem of getting things out of the light path was already there with the mirror.  They removed the mirror, so why not removing the springs too.  Maybe some patents are up for grabs.

That said, I am not sure which is worth pursuing as an effort: the digital effort to improve the ISO levels or the mechanical effort to steady the sensor for longer shutter times.  This problem arises in many places such as cars (e.g. in the differential wheeling: is it better to control it with a faster computer or with an improved gearset) and many other devices we work with daily.  From my point of view, at this time it might be worth pursuing towards higher ISO, rather than IBIS.

Alex

[LocalHero1953]

The solution to IBIS for Leica and others will be electronic stabilisation, requiring no additional space-hungry electromechanics, but a physically bigger sensor (because you waste pixels around the edge) and more processing power. The technology exists; but I suspect the desired speed of response would challenge the current M processor, and I suppose some M lenses might not have a big enough image circle. I suspect in ten years' time electromechanical IBIS will seem as antiquated as dial telephones, adding machines and DSLRs with their flapping mirrors.

Edited August 31, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

15 minutes ago, Alexandre Petrescu said:

Thanks for the photo of the inner situation.  Indeed the sensor looks to be situated the deepest possible - almost near the screen; and it is already a feat to have it there.  COmpared to my Canon camera, the sensor is really deeply situated.  (on Canon cameras one can see the horizontal plane of the sensor depicted on the body which is a symbol horizontal dash - stroke through an 'o'.)

It took Leica a full extra year of development to come to this solution. Normally a sensor is soldered onto the motherboard - which takes up space. Leica designed a sensor with the motherboard to the side in two parts, you can see the second part at 90º.

[scott kirkpatrick]

It isn't why I bought an M10-R, but some of my pictures were selected to show off a new, high capacity commercial printer.   I just received some of the proof prints.  the paper is 75x55 cm, the printed mage is about 55 x 42 cm (slight crop on the sides).  And it looks great to me.  No resolution artifacts, just detail.  The printer group is Israeli, and they liked having demo prints that are characteristic of Jerusalem, but not the usual stuff.  So they have tested with this one.  And may do others from this recent album.  But what am I going to do with a collection of almost A1 prints?  I am tempted to put a stiff cardboard behind each, seal them in a clear bag, and sell them to our tourists, but as the artwork isn't by me, that may not be a good idea.

Here's the technology  that they are developing (I guess they already have these in the market and are extending it,) but look at the scale -- dozens of ink colors, applied at various points along the path of a continuous roll of paper in a printing press.  Now I understand why they can't run off just one to see how it will look. Actually, Indigo (HP bought the company, but it is Israeli in origin and manufactured here) is about as flexible as offset gets.  This machine may be sheet fed.  You're not going to set up one of these in the spare bedroom.

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[mmradman]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

Where would you have Leica find the space, Scott?

 

 

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Its for Leica to figure out.

[jonoslack]

14 hours ago, tobey bilek said:

My M10 has iso 100 on the dial where the M3 rewind was placed.    

Yes Tobey - but it isn’t the base ISO (which is 200) and it isn’t used in auto ISO for good reason:

There is an article explaining the issue here http://www.slack.co.uk/m10-highlights.html

All the best

[Dr No]

15 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

It isn't why I bought an M10-R, but some of my pictures were selected to show off a new, high capacity commercial printer.   I just received some of the proof prints.  the paper is 75x55 cm, the printed mage is about 55 x 42 cm (slight crop on the sides).  And it looks great to me.  No resolution artifacts, just detail.  The printer group is Israeli, and they liked having demo prints that are characteristic of Jerusalem, but not the usual stuff.  So they have tested with this one.  And may do others from this recent album.  But what am I going to do with a collection of almost A1 prints?  I am tempted to put a stiff cardboard behind each, seal them in a clear bag, and sell them to our tourists, but as the artwork isn't by me, that may not be a good idea.

Here's the technology  that they are developing (I guess they already have these in the market and are extending it,) but look at the scale -- dozens of ink colors, applied at various points along the path of a continuous roll of paper in a printing press.  Now I understand why they can't run off just one to see how it will look. Actually, Indigo (HP bought the company, but it is Israeli in origin and manufactured here) is about as flexible as offset gets.  This machine may be sheet fed.  You're not going to set up one of these in the spare bedroom.

 

Nice.

Yes, a lot of what I am working on these days is printed on Indigo. It really has opened things up and bought up quality (especially when they updated to FM Screens), flexibility, scale and workflow speed and but there are some niggling limitations too. Really, it is quite astonishing what is capable today with Indigo and if you went back in time 10-15 years ago people probably wouldn't believe what you told them is possible. it's advancing extremely quick—people think they don't need high resolution cameras. Ha.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Dr No

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[Dr No]

12 hours ago, mmradman said:

Its for Leica to figure out.

It really isn't needed for quite some time yet.

Perhaps in the future when it is on-sensor stabilisation.

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Yes Tobey - but it isn’t the base ISO (which is 200) and it isn’t used in auto ISO for good reason:

There is an article explaining the issue here http://www.slack.co.uk/m10-highlights.html

All the best

Blown highlights are not automatically related to base ISO but the exposure. Unfortunately, Leica has several cameras that require underexposing at base ISO to prevent blown highlights. That is probably why Auto ISO does not use the native/base ISO. AFAIK, base ISO on Leica M10 is somewhere between ISO100 and 200 (highest measurable DR).