Leica discontinues CCD (M9 and Variants) sensor production

[martinot]

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6 minutes ago, pippy said:

Not the 2nd. Gen. sensor cover glass; only those replacements which were undertaken before the new cover glass was introduced in mid 2015.

Philip.

 

 

43 minutes ago, pgk said:

Well, I haven't seen such comments myself and since I have 2 x M9s with replaced sensors I would have expected to have picked up on it if it was a bid problem.

I just read a post about it in another thread I replied in earlier today in this forum (and have seen others before 😞) :

 

[martinot]

On 8/9/2020 at 6:39 PM, rivi1969 said:

I understand you said you have to send your camera via Leica Miami, I assume it needed repair.

My M9-P was refurbished less than a year ago, the sensor is new, it won't corrode. Now, if I had a 2015 ME and Leica says sorry, your camera is "unrepairable, take the trade-in" I would simply sell it on my own and move to another brand. I wouldn't give another dime to a company that let me with a 5-year old $5000 brick. 

Just this month by my own mistake I broke my Smeg toaster, it was out of warranty, but I called customer service and I send it to the repair facility (Fedex shipping was paid by them) fixed my toaster, and not only that, they send me a new one for free. Yes I know, we are talking 150 USD toasters, but the point is, maybe Leica could do better especially with those owners whose cameras are relative new, 5-year old or less. Maybe a demo M240 as a straight trade with NO money involved.

Yes, good idea. I think that perhaps could be a fair and workable solution for both users and Leica.

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[martinot]

On 8/12/2020 at 5:38 PM, adan said:

Isn't there a big difference between "still working" and "repairable" - the latter being the subject of the thread.

I own a still-working 1987 Mac Plus - I am sure it is not repairable, absent cannibalizing some other 1987 Mac Plus.

Of note, I see on a different forum that the top-end Canon 1D mk. IV (introduced 2009, discontinued 2012) was declared to be at the "end of service life" (no longer repairable) by early 2019.

Seven years.

Yes, I checked the Apple support data base. The Mac Plus is no longer serviced by Apple (just like the Apple II machines I collect):

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624

[capelini61]

6 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Sorry to hear that and I apologize if I sounded flippant. Were you eligible to have the second sensor replaced or did the sensor corrosion occur after the program had ended?

there is no need to apologize, Leica with its customers has to apologize. I live in Brazil, currently Leica has no representative here, so everything is more difficult, the second sensor crashed last year,

[martinot]

On 8/13/2020 at 4:04 PM, carbon_dragon said:

Again, no Leica isn't going to do any of the things I have suggested so you don't have to convince me it's unlikely or not an economically worthwhile business practice. I wish they would consider the altered trade-in scheme though (just giving you a voucher with a set amount of money for  your M9 spendable for items in Leica's refurbished stock or a Leica store's used stock). Though my M9 has a new sensor and seems to be fine so I don't need one myself for now. 

The future of Leica is in the OTHER cameras Leica makes -- the CL, the TL, the S and so on. And if the customers eventually decide that an M isn't worth the high premium cost for the materials and craftsmanship used to create it, there is always the Q and the new interchangeable lens camera they could make from it. It would even kind of look like an M (the way the Fuji X100V does). But it wouldn't BE one and it wouldn't come with the baggage and mystique the M has. 

If there is any sort of problem here in terms of Leica selling an "expectation" of long life, it's only with the M camera, not any of the others. And it's an expectation that is based on just how successfully Leica has accomplished that goal over the last 70 years (before electronics were around to change the equation).

 

I think your totally right on your assessment of the long life M philosophy clashing a little bit with modern fast digital obsoleteness.

I am actually really amazed that both Leica as a company, and their range finder business, has so far manged to survive so long, and that we still have new digital M cameras even in 2020. I am personally really glad that we do, I really appreciate that Leica has kept the range finder business alive. I think it is a golden treasure that we have here with the digital M systems (I really enjoy the Zen like RF experience, but I am also to lazy to bother with developing film), and hope they will continue for many more years to come.

Even if I fully sympathise with all M9 owners, and agree in part with those saying it could have possibly been handled a bit better (both for the affected customers, but also for Leica's own PR and reputation), I say that Leica's management in large has really done a fantastic job by still having digital M cameras in 2020. I think they really understand their target market, and how to market the products to use customers.

Even with this hiccup with the M9 sensor problem (really bad luck for Leica from start), I would still give management and company a 10/10 score for doing as well as they actually have been able to. I find their work amazing in an very difficult and niche market for a very small company (especially in a generally declining camera market condition). Still love the company and it's products.  

Edited September 3, 2020 by martinot

[pippy]

1 hour ago, martinot said:

I just read a post about it in another thread I replied in earlier today in this forum (and have seen others before 😞) :

Considering that not one single occasion of a second generation sensor glass having failed in the five years since its introduction has been recorded I would suggest that absolute proof of any such failure rather than absolute nonsense would be a good direction to take at this point. Otherwise you will come across as a troll.

Philip.

Edited September 3, 2020 by pippy

[martinot]

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1 minute ago, pippy said:

Proof rather than absolute nonsense would be a good direction to take at this point. Otherwise you will come across as a troll.

Philip.

Of course (even if I think the personal attack above is totally unnecessary and uncalled for).

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/310595-sold-my-m9/?do=findComment&comment=4026941

"My main reason for selling the M9 is that it's unlikely that I would use it a lot. So for something that would collect dust and risks of having costs on repairs, it's just better to sell it for a decent price. I know it's unlikely that the second gen. sensor would suffer from corrosion. But the repair guy of Amsterdam Camera Repairs recently had an issue with a second gen. sensor that cracked. His camera is useless now. "

 

 

 

[martinot]

33 minutes ago, capelini61 said:

there is no need to apologize, Leica with its customers has to apologize. I live in Brazil, currently Leica has no representative here, so everything is more difficult, the second sensor crashed last year,

Sorry to hear that. You have my full sympathies. I hope they will make it up to you with some compensation or trade in program.

[capelini61]

8 minutes ago, martinot said:

Of course (even if I think the personal attack above is totally unnecessary and uncalled for).

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/310595-sold-my-m9/?do=findComment&comment=4026941

"My main reason for selling the M9 is that it's unlikely that I would use it a lot. So for something that would collect dust and risks of having costs on repairs, it's just better to sell it for a decent price. I know it's unlikely that the second gen. sensor would suffer from corrosion. But the repair guy of Amsterdam Camera Repairs recently had an issue with a second gen. sensor that cracked. His camera is useless now. "

 

 

 

my M9 is useless. the replaced sensor crashed too.

[pippy]

11 minutes ago, martinot said:

Of course (even if I think the personal attack above is totally unnecessary and uncalled for).

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/310595-sold-my-m9/?do=findComment&comment=4026941

"My main reason for selling the M9 is that it's unlikely that I would use it a lot. So for something that would collect dust and risks of having costs on repairs, it's just better to sell it for a decent price. I know it's unlikely that the second gen. sensor would suffer from corrosion. But the repair guy of Amsterdam Camera Repairs recently had an issue with a second gen. sensor that cracked. His camera is useless now. "

That backs up what I said;

"I know it's unlikely that the second gen. sensor would suffer from corrosion..."

There has never been one single instance of the 2nd generation sensor / cover glass corroding ever having been recorded. If there had been then we would all know about it.

I stand by my comments made earlier. Either prove you are right or prove me wrong.

Philip.

Edited September 3, 2020 by pippy

[pippy]

9 minutes ago, capelini61 said:

my M9 is useless. the replaced sensor crashed too.

Aw!...The Wee Lamb!

That's because - as you well know and have stated to be the case - it was replaced by a 1st gen sensor.

Philip.

Edited September 3, 2020 by pippy

[pippy]

12 minutes ago, martinot said:

Sorry to hear that. You have my full sympathies. I hope they will make it up to you with some compensation or trade in program.

Perhaps a jam sandwich?

Philip.

[martinot]

12 minutes ago, pippy said:

That backs up what I said;

"I know it's unlikely that the second gen. sensor would suffer from corrosion..."

There has never been one single instance of the 2nd generation sensor / cover glass corroding ever having been recorded. If there had been then we would all know about it.

I stand by my comments made earlier. Prove me wrong.

Philip.

I feel that you do seem to be an quite aggressive personality looking for personal conflicts. Am I wrong? For the debate here I hope that I am. So much nicer if we can discuss the topics at hand without lashing out against each other.

That said back to the topic: It is you who possibly have read other things into things which has not been discussed by me.

I have talked specifically about the cracked glass problem on the second gen sensors (and nothing else).

Edited September 3, 2020 by martinot

[martinot]

3 minutes ago, pippy said:

Perhaps a jam sandwich?

Philip.

Why not!

That said I am personally not into jam (but it also not me being affected - it was another poster).

[pippy]

Marmite? On hot buttered toast?

P.

Edited September 3, 2020 by pippy

[martinot]

1 minute ago, pippy said:

Marmite?

P.

You Englishmen have so strange taste buds!

No, I hate that. Have some lovely English friends that I visit, and have yet never manged to like that strange thing. 

Perhaps an acquired taste.

[pippy]

3 minutes ago, martinot said:

You Englishmen have so strange taste buds! ...

Actually, dear chap, I'm a Scot.

But, as we are friends, we'll let that misunderstanding go un-noticed.

Philip.

Edited September 3, 2020 by pippy

[rramesh]

The issue with the M9 is not the sensor. Rather the cover glass.

I’ve been informed by Kolari Vision that they are willing to try a replacement, but they need an M9 with a delaminated sensor. 

maybe someone in the US can work with them. Can send you the contact. 

[rramesh]

 .

Edited September 5, 2020 by rramesh

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[martinot]

On 8/15/2020 at 6:04 AM, 84bravo said:

In the big scheme of camera manufactures, Leica is a bit better than Canon and Nikon in regards to supporting out of production cameras. The M9 is now ten years old and has been supported with free recalls for original owners. They offered sensor replacements at a discount later. Not great, but pretty good support for a faulty camera design. Now they are simply out of sensor parts. They will still repair the M8 within the limits of spare parts available. That camera is now fourteen years old.

I am a professional photographer and also use Canon DSLR equipment. I also use the highest level of their Canon Professional Services for fast repair and support. Once a piece of equipment is more than two generations old, Canon won't touch it. Not only will they not repair that equipment, they won't even take it for cleaning which is part of the CPS package and is often a courtesy offered to pros at large events (olympics, superbowl, etc). My 400f2.8 and 300f2.8 work great, but Canon won't support them anymore. These were $12k and $6k lenses that are my bread and butter tools for professional sports. I'm quite literally on borrowed time with these lenses which are less than 10 years old. When an electronic module dies in these lenses they become doorstops.

I don't like how manufacturers fail to support their top level gear and I've talked at length to my Canon pro rep about it (he's a good friend). The unfortunate reality of modern digital gear is that repairs can only be made by the manufacturer. Leica is no different in this regard, but they at least offer support as best they can beyond an arbitrary time frame mandated by Nikon or Canon (two generations for Canon).

I also shoot Nikon DSLR, and from what I have seen from other friends doing the same, they have been pretty excellent by standing by their products. They have repaired things for free which has been old and out of warranty (they hade some shutter problems in D6xx/D7xxx series, among other things). They also seems to have a very good reserve and supply of spare parts for old products.

I really love my M system, and much of Leica, but I would rate Nikon much higher in supporting and servicing their cameras.