Jump to content

Leica discontinues CCD (M9 and Variants) sensor production


Jeff S

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, rivi1969 said:

Leica should have to know exactly how many cameras they produced with faulty sensors and have enough spares for them. 

What is going to happen with your M-E which is less than 5-years old, so are you going to take the trade? You would be better off selling it for parts and buying a mint-body from a reputable dealer.

My M-E is with new sensor from 2018. But someone else with 2015 made M-E might be still not.  And maybe someone else purchased M-E in 2016 from official dealer. Leica made statement about free change of sensor in under five years old cameras. As of now it is ditched by Leica Camera AG. 

And how about those who just recently purchased refurbished  by Leica M9, MM? Sensor could go bad for different reasons. 2019 purchased for three grands camera might need sensor for whatever reason. And now Leica only solution is to pay to them another five grands. We don't know if similar situation will not re-occurs with M240 series. For whatever part.

Until here is M with modular construction and provision to update to newer sensors, shutters, I don't think is it reasonable to pay thousands of dollars for mint body which might also become obsolete too soon as we see it now.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, carbon_dragon said:

I see two viewpoints here, both of which I see as valid. Let's forget about Leica for a minute and just consider Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, and every other camera maker. Obsolescence happens quickly and electronic parts go out of production fairly frequently. If you consider the life of a DIGITAL camera (not a regular camera) or a digital anything (home computer for instance), you don't want to abandon your device as soon as your customer takes possession but it sometimes felt like that with computers decades ago. How long is reasonable to maintain repair capability? Well, two ways to look at it is either how long it will be relevant as a tool, and how long people will keep the camera on average. In the old days, cameras were progressing so rapidly that that might have been a few years or maybe 5. Certainly 10 years would be adequate. Likewise, we THOUGHT that digital cameras couldn't possibly remain relevant longer than that, but I've kind have been surprised actually. Some older cameras have remained surprisingly useful. Even so 10 years seems adequate.

What about Leica though? Leica is all about making cameras so durable that I still have a working IIIf and 2 working M2s which will probably outlast me. Does that level of workmanship make sense? Well, not if the life of the camera is 10 years. For a 10 year lifespan, it seems to me that polycarbonate, plastic, and other materials makes more sense. My Minolta 600si is still perfect useable now and it's not made like a Leica. Would you buy a home computer made with Leica production values? Say an Dell PC made with a case that has an expected lifespan of 50 years? What would be the point? But Leica is still making cameras with the quality level they always have. Having trained Leica owners that Leicas are built to last stupid amounts of time, and having made even Leica digitals that way, and having made cameras good enough so that the M9 (with the proviso of its sensor) and the M8 so that they can still be used today, there is a sort of implicit promise that Leica digitals will be handled similarly to previous Leicas. It's why people pay $8000 for them, because they anticipate them being useful for ... well... a LONG time, longer than 10 years at least, maybe more like 20. 

So even if limiting repairs is perfectly reasonable for any company these days, if it's what everyone does, Having Leica do it might still be a shock for the Leica faithful. It's crazy to even think of something like this, but if you heard that Leica would tear the innards out of your M9 and put in a M10 sensor and internals (even though it would still end up fatter just because of the case) for some semi-reasonable price like $2500, would you be too shocked? If that happened, wouldn't it just be reinforcing the longevity they have been convincing us their cameras have for something like 80 years now? 

That said, having lived through my Kyocera/Yashica/Contax SLRs slowly giving up the ghost and becoming just pretty display items (simply because their electronics are unrepairable), I fully expect that ALL my Leica Ms (including my M10) will end up unrepairable long before my M2s do. If 2035 rolls around and you can't get your M10R repaired due to sensor replacement issues or back screen issues or unavailability of parts, is that going to be OK? How long do you believe your Leica M10 or M10R purchased today for $8000 or so should continue to work and be repairable in order for you to be satisfied. 

My Canon 5D is 100% functional and it was made in 2005, 15 years and working as new. Apparently there are no more replacement shutters, but if my camera has maybe 5000 clicks I doubt I will ever take it beyond its 300k limit. If it dies at least it didn't cost me $6000.

If Canon makes Cameras who can last that long I guess Leica can do too. And the cost of service and repairs is not even close. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, carbon_dragon said:

I see two viewpoints here, both of which I see as valid. Let's forget about Leica for a minute and just consider Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, and every other camera maker. Obsolescence happens quickly and electronic parts go out of production fairly frequently. If you consider the life of a DIGITAL camera (not a regular camera) or a digital anything (home computer for instance), you don't want to abandon your device as soon as your customer takes possession but it sometimes felt like that with computers decades ago. How long is reasonable to maintain repair capability? Well, two ways to look at it is either how long it will be relevant as a tool, and how long people will keep the camera on average. In the old days, cameras were progressing so rapidly that that might have been a few years or maybe 5. Certainly 10 years would be adequate. Likewise, we THOUGHT that digital cameras couldn't possibly remain relevant longer than that, but I've kind have been surprised actually. Some older cameras have remained surprisingly useful. Even so 10 years seems adequate.

What about Leica though? Leica is all about making cameras so durable that I still have a working IIIf and 2 working M2s which will probably outlast me. Does that level of workmanship make sense? Well, not if the life of the camera is 10 years. For a 10 year lifespan, it seems to me that polycarbonate, plastic, and other materials makes more sense. My Minolta 600si is still perfect useable now and it's not made like a Leica. Would you buy a home computer made with Leica production values? Say an Dell PC made with a case that has an expected lifespan of 50 years? What would be the point? But Leica is still making cameras with the quality level they always have. Having trained Leica owners that Leicas are built to last stupid amounts of time, and having made even Leica digitals that way, and having made cameras good enough so that the M9 (with the proviso of its sensor) and the M8 so that they can still be used today, there is a sort of implicit promise that Leica digitals will be handled similarly to previous Leicas. It's why people pay $8000 for them, because they anticipate them being useful for ... well... a LONG time, longer than 10 years at least, maybe more like 20. 

So even if limiting repairs is perfectly reasonable for any company these days, if it's what everyone does, Having Leica do it might still be a shock for the Leica faithful. It's crazy to even think of something like this, but if you heard that Leica would tear the innards out of your M9 and put in a M10 sensor and internals (even though it would still end up fatter just because of the case) for some semi-reasonable price like $2500, would you be too shocked? If that happened, wouldn't it just be reinforcing the longevity they have been convincing us their cameras have for something like 80 years now? 

That said, having lived through my Kyocera/Yashica/Contax SLRs slowly giving up the ghost and becoming just pretty display items (simply because their electronics are unrepairable), I fully expect that ALL my Leica Ms (including my M10) will end up unrepairable long before my M2s do. If 2035 rolls around and you can't get your M10R repaired due to sensor replacement issues or back screen issues or unavailability of parts, is that going to be OK? How long do you believe your Leica M10 or M10R purchased today for $8000 or so should continue to work and be repairable in order for you to be satisfied. 

Where are third party solution for using of Sony A7 sensor in M3.  Modular manufacturing and re-programmable processing card to hold new components, drivers and firmware in older chassis are not rare solution. I have seen more than ten years life span and upgrade of electronics running 24/7 with this architecture, extended support, upgrade capabilities.  

As for IIIf outlasting you, it is simply because half-mirrors and curtains are available from third party too.

Just watch plastic lens holder on the back. It is not uncommon to see IIIf for hundred bucks with plastic failed from those cameras and RF, VF lenses lost. Those are not available as replacement.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

My M-E is with new sensor from 2018. But someone else with 2015 made M-E might be still not.  And maybe someone else purchased M-E in 2016 from official dealer. Leica made statement about free change of sensor in under five years old cameras. As of now it is ditched by Leica Camera AG. 

And how about those who just recently purchased refurbished  by Leica M9, MM? Sensor could go bad for different reasons. 2019 purchased for three grands camera might need sensor for whatever reason. And now Leica only solution is to pay to them another five grands. We don't know if similar situation will not re-occurs with M240 series. For whatever part.

Until here is M with modular construction and provision to update to newer sensors, shutters, I don't think is it reasonable to pay thousands of dollars for mint body which might also become obsolete too soon as we see it now.

I understand you said you have to send your camera via Leica Miami, I assume it needed repair.

My M9-P was refurbished less than a year ago, the sensor is new, it won't corrode. Now, if I had a 2015 ME and Leica says sorry, your camera is "unrepairable, take the trade-in" I would simply sell it on my own and move to another brand. I wouldn't give another dime to a company that let me with a 5-year old $5000 brick. 

Just this month by my own mistake I broke my Smeg toaster, it was out of warranty, but I called customer service and I send it to the repair facility (Fedex shipping was paid by them) fixed my toaster, and not only that, they send me a new one for free. Yes I know, we are talking 150 USD toasters, but the point is, maybe Leica could do better especially with those owners whose cameras are relative new, 5-year old or less. Maybe a demo M240 as a straight trade with NO money involved.

Edited by rivi1969
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, rivi1969 said:

My Canon 5D is 100% functional and it was made in 2005, 15 years and working as new. Apparently there are no more replacement shutters, but if my camera has maybe 5000 clicks I doubt I will ever take it beyond its 300k limit. If it dies at least it didn't cost me $6000.

If Canon makes Cameras who can last that long I guess Leica can do too. And the cost of service and repairs is not even close. 

I sold 5D as soon as I read about end of support announcement. To discover later DIY videos on YouTube and shutters, sensors available on eBay. 

 

2 minutes ago, rivi1969 said:

I understand you said you have to send your camera via Leica Miami, I assume it needed repair.

My M9-P was refurbished less than a year ago, the sensor is new, it won't corrode. Now, if I had a 2015 ME and Leica says sorry, your camera is "unrepairable, take the trade-in" I would simply sell it on my own and move to another brand. I wouldn't give another dime to a company that let me with a 5-year old $5000 brick. 

Just this month by my own mistake I broke my Smeg toaster, it was out of warranty, but I called customer service and I send it to the repair facility (Fedex shipping was paid by them) fixed my toaster, and not only I that, they send me a new one for free. Yes I know, we are talking 150 USD toasters, but the point is, maybe Leica could do better especially with those owners whose cameras are relative new, 5-year old or less. Maybe a demo M240 as a straight trade with NO money involved.

My M-E 220 was purchased new in Moscow (autumn 2016) and went for new sensor in 2018 via Downtown Camera in Toronto.

With Canon RP purchased just recently, my M-E 220 is last digital Leica I have purchased for practical reason. I might get another digital Leica, but strictly for feel good reason. Like buying Mazda Miata (except parts are still available) in addition to daily driven car.

I'm keeping M4-2 which needs at least 500 USD for parts and service to work flawlessly again. As I mentioned above, here is DIY solution for A7's sensor in M3 is already available.  

If Leica would have think about customers as much as they care for profit, film M to digital M conversion would be in Leica Camera AG price list already. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

33 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I sold 5D as soon as I read about end of support announcement. To discover later DIY videos on YouTube and shutters, sensors available on eBay. 

 

My M-E 220 was purchased new in Moscow (autumn 2016) and went for new sensor in 2018 via Downtown Camera in Toronto.

With Canon RP purchased just recently, my M-E 220 is last digital Leica I have purchased for practical reason. I might get another digital Leica, but strictly for feel good reason. Like buying Mazda Miata (except parts are still available) in addition to daily driven car.

I'm keeping M4-2 which needs at least 500 USD for parts and service to work flawlessly again. As I mentioned above, here is DIY solution for A7's sensor in M3 is already available.  

If Leica would have think about customers as much as they care for profit, film M to digital M conversion would be in Leica Camera AG price list already. 

For "feel good reasons", I would buy an orange UAZ Hunter :))

Link to post
Share on other sites

As stated in a recent post by me, not knowing of the discontinuation of the sensor replacement option for the M9, I dropped my M9P off at the official Leica Los Angeles boutique only 3 days ago who did not mention  anything about this new policy. Tomorrow will be Monday when it will be shipped via 2 day courier to Leica NJ, whereupon NJ will contact me directly with cost and timing info. I will be interested in seeing if they go ahead with the repair or offer an upgrade. 
 

This M9P has sentimental value as it took all of the keeper pictures of my 3 children as they grew up and I finally sent it in even though it did not have corrosion. I just wanted to ensure I could use it as long as possible. Leica did replace my M9M sensor last year as it did have a tiny amount of corrosion for free. Overall the quality of the files keeps me coming back to Leica so do not mind putting up with the occasional inconveniences. 

Edited by ymc226
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, ymc226 said:

As stated in a recent post by me, not knowing of the discontinuation of the sensor replacement option for the M9, I dropped my M9P off at the official Leica Los Angeles boutique only 3 days ago who did not mention  anything about this new policy. Tomorrow will be Monday when it will be shipped via 2 day courier to Leica NJ, whereupon NJ will contact me directly with cost and timing info. I will be interested in seeing if they go ahead with the repair or offer an upgrade. 
 

This M9P has sentimental value as it took all of the keeper pictures of my 3 children as they grew up and I finally sent it in even though it did not have corrosion. I just wanted to ensure I could use it as long as possible. Leica did replace my M9M sensor last year as it did have a tiny amount of corrosion for free. Overall the quality of the files keeps me coming back to Leica so do not mind putting up with the occasional inconveniences. 

If the sensor won't show any corrosion they might say there is no need to replace it, hopefully they will have a few sensors left and do the swap so you can keep your camera for the years to come. If not, would you take the trade-in offer?

Link to post
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, rivi1969 said:

If the sensor won't show any corrosion they might say there is no need to replace it, hopefully they will have a few sensors left and do the swap so you can keep your camera for the years to come. If not, would you take the trade-in offer?

I specifically asked the Leica representative about this issue and he saw no reason why they would not.  He says he deals with sending in cameras for the sensor fix not infrequently.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 8/9/2020 at 2:24 PM, TomB_tx said:

I still drive a '73 VW Beetle, so I don't panic about a lack of factory support on products. Of course, there's not much to go wrong with the Beetle, although the driver's RAM is developing problems.

I see the beetle much like my Leica M2. I've had the M2s repaired (by a local guy, not by Leica). There are lots of people who have good parts supplies or can source the parts (or make them). The problem is not the mechanical parts, but the electronics. You can't turn out an electronic IC on a lathe. I understand Leica is in a tough (maybe impossible) position here. And depending on their current owners/board of directors, it might be impossible to do anything crazy to support M9s for the long term (or M10s, or M8s, or any Leica digital camera). You can't keep infinite parts. However, if it starts being the case that Leica cameras become useless after too few years, people will stop paying $8000 for one. Leica may be forced to make the equivalent of Fuji cameras. Fujis are fine machines, but they aren't made for 50 years of service and they're not priced like that either. Leica is already doing some of that with their APS-C cameras. Sure they're made great, but not to the crazy levels of the Ms and they're not priced that way either. It could be that the M might just be the eventual casualty of operating like EVERY OTHER CAMERA COMPANY would. That would be sad, but not wrong or unethical.

And as I said, trade-in offers are a fine way to handle that, if the price is fair. If I can buy a used machine in perfect condition for $500 less than the offer price and I lose the M9 too, I'd be less than comfortable (and indeed I did turn that down when I did my sensor fix). Maybe that is unfair. I don't really know how useful it is for Leica to get back an M9 and what the parts are worth to Leica as spares. And even if the trade-in price is $6000, compared to the new price of $8000 that might sound like a pretty good deal. As I said I can see both sides. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 08/08/2020 at 09:53, carbon_dragon said:

Sou o único que acha que a Leica deveria propor algum tipo de acomodação para os proprietários do M9 (mesmo que não seja legalmente obrigado)? Por que eles deveriam? Porque as pessoas compram e mantêm Leicas por mais tempo e isso faz parte de como justificam o custo. Como um caminho de atualização de preço razoável ou um novo sensor que cabe na câmera, ou algo assim. Do contrário, alguém que está comprando um M10R agora vai pensar consigo mesmo: Hmmm ... Acho que a Leica é como todas as outras marcas, com capacidade de reparo apenas por cerca de uma década. Talvez não seja uma boa ideia gastar esse preço premium quando posso conseguir algo mais barato. Claro que o Leica foi feito melhor, mas o case não tem sentido sem o sensor, então o excelente acabamento não é tão importante.

I totally agree with your comment, how many other customers are in the same situation as me; the second sensor replaced is corroded. My M9 no longer exists.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Contacted Leica Germany at the end of last month with a request to advise me on sensor repair/replacement options as I suspected both my M9 and M Monochrom were suffering from corrosion. Due to an extended period living and working overseas I never followed the whole M9 CCD sensor replacement saga over the last few years.

Leica AG requested me to send in some DNG files for evaluation which I did over the weekend and they got back to me yesterday confirming corrosion issues with a request to confirm my country of residence (now UK).

Given this latest news of CCD sensor discontinuation, just waiting to hear now whether they can still offer a sensor replacement or whether they expect me to drop over 9K GBP (4K & 5K for M10 and M10 Monochrom upgrades respectively) to upgrade my knackered M9/Monochrom to the M10 equivalents. Not money to be found down the back of the sofa.

Having started with Leica in my early 30's, I think if that is the case it will be time to give up on Leica after over 20 years and sell of my Leica glass and indulge my hobby but at a lower cost base using the Fujifilm X cameras that I've dabbled with recently. Leica products have never been cheap but over the last few years they've been taking things to a new level and have just got too god damn expensive for mere mortals.

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 8/9/2020 at 12:28 PM, rivi1969 said:

My Canon 5D is 100% functional and it was made in 2005, 15 years and working as new. Apparently there are no more replacement shutters, but if my camera has maybe 5000 clicks I doubt I will ever take it beyond its 300k limit. If it dies at least it didn't cost me $6000.

If Canon makes Cameras who can last that long I guess Leica can do too. And the cost of service and repairs is not even close. 

Yes that was kind of my point. My 5d is still fully functional too. "Regular" camera manufacturers make pretty long lived cameras and tough ones too, and they do it without $8000 price tags. Granted Leicas are works of art in many ways with hand crafting and fine mechanical precision, and so on. There are certainly Canon Ps and Nikon rangefinders still working too, but MOST Leicas from that period are still functional (or at least a heck of a lot of them). I think Leica takes pride in cameras living longer than their owners and not just one or two but most of them. It's a mindset you can embrace when the camera is all mechanical (much as we embrace it with mechanical watches). But once you add electronics, well you can't make new electronic components once the production line stops. 

What do you do if you're Leica and you take pride in your cameras outliving their owners? Do you give up on that notion and still make cameras that SHOULD last that long but won't because what is inside will fail long before the  outer shell? Or do you do crazy things to keep up the spirit of that long life (like upgrading camera internals)? I expect they will quietly transition to letting those Ms slowly become shelf queens when there are no more electronic parts from the original cameras. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 8/11/2020 at 7:59 AM, Tampico said:

Contacted Leica Germany at the end of last month with a request to advise me on sensor repair/replacement options as I suspected both my M9 and M Monochrom were suffering from corrosion. Due to an extended period living and working overseas I never followed the whole M9 CCD sensor replacement saga over the last few years.

Leica AG requested me to send in some DNG files for evaluation which I did over the weekend and they got back to me yesterday confirming corrosion issues with a request to confirm my country of residence (now UK).

Given this latest news of CCD sensor discontinuation, just waiting to hear now whether they can still offer a sensor replacement or whether they expect me to drop over 9K GBP (4K & 5K for M10 and M10 Monochrom upgrades respectively) to upgrade my knackered M9/Monochrom to the M10 equivalents. Not money to be found down the back of the sofa.

Having started with Leica in my early 30's, I think if that is the case it will be time to give up on Leica after over 20 years and sell of my Leica glass and indulge my hobby but at a lower cost base using the Fujifilm X cameras that I've dabbled with recently. Leica products have never been cheap but over the last few years they've been taking things to a new level and have just got too god damn expensive for mere mortals.

 

 

I feel very sorry for you. I would be extremely pissed! The upgrade offer is not even that attractive.. the M10 can be found cheaper in good condition used from an reputable dealer europe. Good luck, hope you get your hands on a nice new camera soon!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the challenge here is that cameras today (by any company) are not like cameras made in the film era. They are fundamentally different things. Modern cameras are electronic devices which are made using parts sourced around the world and are not solely dependent on a single company. Very few companies other than those like Sony and Fuji have the capacity to create them fully on their own. In order to make all the components in house, Leica would have to be a giant manufacturing powerhouse and chip maker. With opto-mechanical cameras, that was more possible to do at a smaller scale. The problem here is not that Leica does not have pride in their products or that they don't want to find a solution. It is that they decided on CCD's, which even in 2009 were an end of life sensor solution for the camera industry (not saying it is bad....they are great, but CMOS had already taken over). Shortly after the cameras came out, Kodak went under and spun off the company. I am not a sensor engineer, so I am not sure how foreseeable the corrosion problem was, but I am sure that had it been known, they would not have chosen the sensor. They have been replacing sensors for at least six years, so there has been a lot of time for people to get the updated sensor. Anyway, I don't want to put this on the customer, but I think Leica has been trying to do as best they could with this.

Regarding the upgrade offer, can you really compare the price you pay to a used model? You would be getting a new one?

As for replacing the innards of an M9 with M10 parts, it is a nice idea, but does not seem workable in practice. Digital cameras have electronics and processors that are mated to an individual sensor and fitted to that exact body. I don't think you can simply replace the M9 electronics with the M10 sensor and be done with it. Even if you could, the most compelling argument for an M9 in 2020 is the CCD...the M10 has a much better viewfinder and shutter, better display, better battery life, it is thinner and so on. The interface is different, so an M10 in an M9 body would need different coding or firmware in order to work with the button layout. All of this work, and how many people would elect to do this, rather than just upgrade to an M10? I suspect very few.

Again, I get that this is a bad situation to be in, and immensely frustrating, but unfortunately it is the state of things. I sympathize, as I had similar problems with my Mamiya 7II, which is a camera that is still widely used and beloved, but has been abandoned completely by its new owner (Phase One). Digital cameras, even expensive ones, simply do not and will not have the lifetime of mechanical only cameras (or those with very simple electronics). Until a local camera repair guy can fabricate a CCD in house as a one-off or populate circuit boards with all the right components in a desktop 3d printer, I don't think it is likely that your grandchildren will be using your M9 (I say this as someone with my grandmother's Leica IIIb).

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 8/7/2020 at 6:40 PM, Jeff S said:

But less than Leica’s stated goal to maintain parts for 10 years after end of model production, if possible.  Still better than many other companies.  
 

Jeff

Sorry but what other companies? In my experience the cameras and sensors they make are all still working. Don

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Don Morley said:

Sorry but what other companies? In my experience the cameras and sensors they make are all still working. Don

 

17 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Again, I get that this is a bad situation to be in, and immensely frustrating, but unfortunately it is the state of things. I sympathize, as I had similar problems with my Mamiya 7II, which is a camera that is still widely used and beloved, but has been abandoned completely by its new owner (Phase One).

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...