When is Leica stopping the M10 Monochrom freezing

[Cayenne]

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42 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

My understanding of best practice is: Format in camera before use and never delete images in camera.

Ok that's what my understanding was too...I shoot, pull card out, upload to computer, put card back in the camera and format in camera....later, rinse, repeat.

C

[Bikie John]

Mine too, with a slight variation. Pull card out, upload to computer, back new files up to DVD, put card back in camera. Repeat as necessary until next general hard drive backup. Then, only once there are copies in three places (hard drive, hard drive backup, and session-specific backup on DVD), reformat card in camera.

John

[LeicaPassion]

I read someplace that it is better to reformat using a program such as SD Formatter rather than in the camera.

[Luke_Miller]

22 hours ago, LeicaPassion said:

I read someplace that it is better to reformat using a program such as SD Formatter rather than in the camera.

It is a good tool to return an SD card to factory specs.  So I use it if I am having trouble with a card to verify the card is not physically defective.  I still re-format in camera to let the camera re-create the file allocation table (FAT).  Probably not necessary, but it eliminates a possible source of error, since card problems are typically due to a corrupted FAT. Normal formatting of a card clears the contents of the FAT, but does not clear the remainder of the cards contents.  That is why recovery programs can restore the images after a format.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Luke_Miller

[LeicaPassion]

After making multiple backups of images, I use 'overwrite format' to minimize possible problems.  So far, my M10M has not frozen.  

[Ko.Fe.]

Looks like it is Leica specific traditions. I had M8 freezing and seen lots of talks about memory cards formatting in M9 sub-forum. 

[analog-digital]

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Am 27.10.2020 um 13:58 schrieb Luke_Miller:

My understanding of best practice is: Format in camera before use and never delete images in camera.

Oh boy. Thats really a bad camera. God to know ........🚑

[Luke_Miller]

40 minutes ago, analog-digital said:

Oh boy. Thats really a bad camera. God to know ........🚑

Not necessarily.  To delete an image the camera has to delete its entry in the file allocation table.  Just another opportunity to create a problem.  I'm sure there are folk that do this all the time without issue.  But the consensus seems to be not to do it.  Memory card best practices are generalities for which exceptions can always be found and have nothing to do with camera or card brand.

[analog-digital]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Luke_Miller:

Not necessarily.  To delete an image the camera has to delete its entry in the file allocation table.  Just another opportunity to create a problem.  I'm sure there are folk that do this all the time without issue.  But the consensus seems to be not to do it.  Memory card best practices are generalities for which exceptions can always be found and have nothing to do with camera or card brand.

I don't know what you're talking about. EVERY camera, since the beginning of the digital, can delete individual photos in the camera. EVERY. Except Leica? If that were the case, it would simply be SCRAP

[Patrickfoley@mac.com]

Leica cameras delete photos just like any camera. But in all cameras deleting the photo doesn’t actually remove the file from the card - it just enables that bit of memory to be overwritten. This is what Leica UK told me on this subject:

“When you're constantly using the card, you're going to gradually wear down its performance. Deleting all the photos does not help as deleting the files only removes the file ending e.g. .Jpeg / .DNG. The original data is still on the card but is hidden and unprotected so you can record over it. All cameras also prefer to record data on unused/virgin space so very large capacity cards can cause bigger delays as the camera may need to scan e.g. 64GB or 128GB of disk before recording the data if the card has been heavily used.

Over time this build-up of hidden data can cause problems with files being corrupted and effect the camera performance. In the more extreme cases it can cause the camera to freeze up as the camera is waiting for a data response from the card before it can confirm that its ready to use.”

That’s why it’s best to format the card pretty regularly. 

[analog-digital]

I already assume that you reformat your memory card every time. These are just basics.

[MrFriendly]

14 hours ago, Patrickfoley@mac.com said:

Leica cameras delete photos just like any camera. But in all cameras deleting the photo doesn’t actually remove the file from the card - it just enables that bit of memory to be overwritten. This is what Leica UK told me on this subject:

“When you're constantly using the card, you're going to gradually wear down its performance. Deleting all the photos does not help as deleting the files only removes the file ending e.g. .Jpeg / .DNG. The original data is still on the card but is hidden and unprotected so you can record over it. All cameras also prefer to record data on unused/virgin space so very large capacity cards can cause bigger delays as the camera may need to scan e.g. 64GB or 128GB of disk before recording the data if the card has been heavily used.

Over time this build-up of hidden data can cause problems with files being corrupted and effect the camera performance. In the more extreme cases it can cause the camera to freeze up as the camera is waiting for a data response from the card before it can confirm that its ready to use.”

That’s why it’s best to format the card pretty regularly. 

I wonder why my M246M and M10-P still freeze up with brand new formatted cards.  I wonder why there exists cameras with much higher frame rate and with an order of magnitude more data read/write rates that don't suffer from this type of freeze up issue related to memory cards.  I wonder why I've never had a freeze up issue with any of my smart phones when taking pictures, and never needed to reformat any of them.  I wonder why my dashcam continues to work everyday for hours without freezing up (it uses the same type of memory card that gets overwritten every time over and over again).

If this so  called "build-up of hidden data" is affecting performance and causing freeze up, then that's a defect in Leica's software, and it needs to be fixed.  It really sounds like they're describing their own software bugs.

Edited October 29, 2020 by MrFriendly
missing quoted text

[Luke_Miller]

19 hours ago, analog-digital said:

I don't know what you're talking about. EVERY camera, since the beginning of the digital, can delete individual photos in the camera. EVERY. Except Leica? If that were the case, it would simply be SCRAP

As I mentioned, best practice has nothing to do with camera or card brand.  So I apply it to every camera I use.  My Lightroom catalog contains 120,000 images taken since 2002.  Many of those images were taken with my M8.2, M9, MM, M240, and M246. During that interval I have not experienced a card failure or camera freeze.  Maybe I have just been lucky, but I think I will keep doing what I do.  No camera should freeze, but if there are things the user can do to potentially minimize the issue while the manufacturer comes up with a solution it would seem prudent to do them.  

[Sandokan]

On 10/15/2020 at 5:33 AM, knisely said:

Relax, Cayenne. I received my M10M this morning from Leica Miami and it shows manufactured date of 9/21/2020. I have tried to make it freeze with and without the EVF. In daylight, in twilight and in a dark room. I also tried turning live view on and off and no freezing. I have taken about 150 images with no issue. 

🙂

T

Mine is the same batch - a Wetzlar edition too? 

[Cayenne]

On 10/28/2020 at 12:09 PM, Luke_Miller said:

Not necessarily.  To delete an image the camera has to delete its entry in the file allocation table.  Just another opportunity to create a problem.  I'm sure there are folk that do this all the time without issue.  But the consensus seems to be not to do it.  Memory card best practices are generalities for which exceptions can always be found and have nothing to do with camera or card brand.

Yeah, I follow this on all my digital cameras, usually without exception....canon, fuji, etc...and now Leica, I don't delete images on the camera itself.

[Sandokan]

regarding - M10M freezing. The solution was given in Post 28. But carry on the debate about formatting versus deep level format versus file delete. I am just amazed that the camera can tell the 1s and 0s from a file that has been deleted (its table entry removed) from the random 1s and 0s that exist on a card anyway 

[japo]

for your info

mine just returned from Leica for a second time (see post #27)  

- have no evf - freezing always occurs in LV

- nothing to do with sd cards or formatting...

print circuit has been replaced

lets hope is finally ok

 

[Kaechen]

Hello, just reading this thread. Me, thinking about buying an M10M - here's my 2 cent on "memory cards" in general, no matter if Leica or Nikon or any. All such cards are manufactured (that I know from a completely different area, my business experience somewhere else) with errors on the chips. There is pretty much no way to get a chip that is 100% ok out of the wafers. But  - that is included, and the memory chips thereselfes do contain a logic to circumvent losses when freshly formatted, no matter which file system. Now, over time, and digital cameras "pump a lot of data" in a chopped, non-flowing way into the chips, the data structure on the chip becomes "difficult". (In earlier times, you remember the defragmentation? That would kill the SSDs, but would be required - a dead lock) I do not say, badly managed or erroneous, but for the logic on the chip, that mapps all fine to us (and the OS) things become time consuming in the range of microseconds.

That is a known source of faults _over time_. So, formatting the chip after you took all the images to a proper new hard drive is a good idea. But this unfortunately not where the story ends. The chips wear out. I was astonished to learn, that, say a 1 GB nominal memory drive (to say a number) is delivered with about 1.5 GB available (could be more). Over time, many cycles of writing and reading, parts of the logic of the chips fail. The SD cards, no matter what quality you buy, do that.The difference between "professional solid state memory" and our "consumer ones" is the size of the "failure reducing" logic(s) build in. Some of the professional do internally a RAID structure, i.e. they copy twice or even with a RAID-5 without telling the end user (the operating system) In a nutshell, the chips, even if freshly formatted, have a probability to produce failures in their memory structure. Now, if the cameras, different temperatures in car, bag, home, outdoors, use such chips for storage, I just have to accept that problems occur. I do not say, there are ways to go around them! I just say, expect issues. One type of remedy is, e.g., like on my Fuji X-T3, use two SD cards. I do not know, if the M10M also has two slots and saves the images on two SDs simutaneously. (As I said.... I want one.... next week.... yee-ha!) ...but if you think, you made the photos of your life right now... download the images immediately on an external drive. If you think I am a weirdo, if I return to the car, I just plug to the lap top and start the copy.

On the freezing I believe you see similar effects the camera has issues to deal with. So yes, if there is a factory recommendation for SDs with which the camera is tested and all parameters are ok, I would opt for such SDs. But I do not want to preach for the choir.

If this post is too long or presents too much unwanted information, please accept my apologies.

 

Best,

kaechen

[jaapv]

The best remedy is SD formatter

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[MrFriendly]

22 hours ago, Kaechen said:

Hello, just reading this thread. Me, thinking about buying an M10M - here's my 2 cent on "memory cards" in general, no matter if Leica or Nikon or any. All such cards are manufactured (that I know from a completely different area, my business experience somewhere else) with errors on the chips. There is pretty much no way to get a chip that is 100% ok out of the wafers. But  - that is included, and the memory chips thereselfes do contain a logic to circumvent losses when freshly formatted, no matter which file system. Now, over time, and digital cameras "pump a lot of data" in a chopped, non-flowing way into the chips, the data structure on the chip becomes "difficult". (In earlier times, you remember the defragmentation? That would kill the SSDs, but would be required - a dead lock) I do not say, badly managed or erroneous, but for the logic on the chip, that mapps all fine to us (and the OS) things become time consuming in the range of microseconds.

That is a known source of faults _over time_. So, formatting the chip after you took all the images to a proper new hard drive is a good idea. But this unfortunately not where the story ends. The chips wear out. I was astonished to learn, that, say a 1 GB nominal memory drive (to say a number) is delivered with about 1.5 GB available (could be more). Over time, many cycles of writing and reading, parts of the logic of the chips fail. The SD cards, no matter what quality you buy, do that.The difference between "professional solid state memory" and our "consumer ones" is the size of the "failure reducing" logic(s) build in. Some of the professional do internally a RAID structure, i.e. they copy twice or even with a RAID-5 without telling the end user (the operating system) In a nutshell, the chips, even if freshly formatted, have a probability to produce failures in their memory structure. Now, if the cameras, different temperatures in car, bag, home, outdoors, use such chips for storage, I just have to accept that problems occur. I do not say, there are ways to go around them! I just say, expect issues. One type of remedy is, e.g., like on my Fuji X-T3, use two SD cards. I do not know, if the M10M also has two slots and saves the images on two SDs simutaneously. (As I said.... I want one.... next week.... yee-ha!) ...but if you think, you made the photos of your life right now... download the images immediately on an external drive. If you think I am a weirdo, if I return to the car, I just plug to the lap top and start the copy.

On the freezing I believe you see similar effects the camera has issues to deal with. So yes, if there is a factory recommendation for SDs with which the camera is tested and all parameters are ok, I would opt for such SDs. But I do not want to preach for the choir.

If this post is too long or presents too much unwanted information, please accept my apologies.

 

Best,

kaechen

Yesterday I formatted my memory card, a Lexar Professional 1667, and within twenty minutes of shooting with my M246M, the camera froze.  The freezing and the lockups issues in the M cameras have nothing to do with memory cards, so please for the love of everything that's good, stop spreading misinformation.  Leica needs to fix its software bugs, that all.