lct Posted October 17, 2020 Share #161 Posted October 17, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) On compactness of latest FF bodies i guess but APS-C cameras should become more compact as well so i doubt they will disappear any time soon but i may be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2020 Posted October 17, 2020 Hi lct, Take a look here Hoping that CL2 = mini SL2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted October 17, 2020 Share #162 Posted October 17, 2020 I don't think you're wrong, especially as Stefan Daniel did confirm Leica's support of APS-C in an interview. The compactness of the bodies is not really the point. Even the SL is not THAT large . There is a lower limit to camera size which is determined by the size of our hands, and present-day mirrorless cameras are all close to it. The size of the lenses matters and the vast majority of AF full-frame lenses is huge and heavy compared to APS lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 17, 2020 Author Share #163 Posted October 17, 2020 (edited) On 10/16/2020 at 11:46 AM, jaapv said: “Can support 45 MP” is nonsense. A lens-sensor imaging system is not a weakest link situation, but an additive one. A better sensor will give a better image with any lens, a better lens will give a better image on any sensor. We have been over this many times on this forum, well documented. Peter Karbe in its latest video presentation of the art of Leica lenses seems to disagree. Sensor can be limited by optical resolving power and vice versa. Sensor + optic couple is limited by the weakest of the two. Herr Karbe were confortable to say that Summilux-M 35mm asph FLE will hit its limit at 24MP wide open. Whereas APO-Summicron-SL 35mm asph will be more than adequate passed 100MP wide open. He also stated that most older lenses were ok with 47MP when you close down the aperture. But not wide open. Edited October 17, 2020 by nicci78 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 17, 2020 Share #164 Posted October 17, 2020 6 hours ago, jaapv said: I don't think you're wrong, especially as Stefan Daniel did confirm Leica's support of APS-C in an interview. The compactness of the bodies is not really the point. Even the SL is not THAT large . There is a lower limit to camera size which is determined by the size of our hands, and present-day mirrorless cameras are all close to it. The size of the lenses matters and the vast majority of AF full-frame lenses is huge and heavy compared to APS lenses. To reinforce: four lenses, two bodies, batteries, chargers, cleaning kit, etc, all in one small bag. What FF mirrorless can compete? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311632-hoping-that-cl2-mini-sl2/?do=findComment&comment=4064158'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 17, 2020 Share #165 Posted October 17, 2020 4 hours ago, nicci78 said: Peter Karbe in its latest video presentation of the art of Leica lenses seems to disagree. Sensor can be limited by optical resolving power and vice versa. Sensor + optic couple is limited by the weakest of the two. Herr Karbe were confortable to say that Summilux-M 35mm asph FLE will hit its limit at 24MP wide open. Whereas APO-Summicron-SL 35mm asph will be more than adequate passed 100MP wide open. He also stated that most older lenses were ok with 47MP when you close down the aperture. But not wide open. https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 17, 2020 Share #166 Posted October 17, 2020 1 hour ago, jaapv said: To reinforce: four lenses, two bodies, batteries, chargers, cleaning kit, etc, all in one small bag. What FF mirrorless can compete? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Sony A7c with M lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 17, 2020 Share #167 Posted October 17, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) That is not the same - one should compare native lenses, only very few people outside this forum will consider using the expensive M lenses with little advantage to the average buyer. And wide-angle lenses are out anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 17, 2020 Share #168 Posted October 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, jaapv said: That is not the same - one should compare native lenses, only very few people outside this forum will consider using the expensive M lenses with little advantage to the average buyer. And wide-angle lenses are out anyway. The opposite you mean i guess. Compare M 24/1.4 to M 35/1.4. The latter is much smaller. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 17, 2020 Share #169 Posted October 17, 2020 That has nothing to do with the lens size. The M will smear in the corners on the Sony - and has no AF. You should compare the Sony 35/1.4 Distagon @ 630 grams and size to match. Or, even better, the 23 TL 2.0 @ 186 gram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 17, 2020 Author Share #170 Posted October 17, 2020 2 hours ago, jaapv said: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/ Karbe’s requirements for lens resolution is totally different from Cicala’s one ! Karbe wants 50% diffraction MTF in the corner at wide aperture ! Cicala is ok with 30% MTF in center and 20% in outer third, stop down ! Not really challenging. Karbe explained why we need 50% MTF at least. Under that, it is garbage information. You know the saying in computer science : garbage in garbage out. The algorithms will have to guess what the pixel should look like. Harder to do at 20% than 80% MTF Karbe also said that stop down most M lenses will be ok with 47MP. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311632-hoping-that-cl2-mini-sl2/?do=findComment&comment=4064285'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 17, 2020 Share #171 Posted October 17, 2020 Puts claims, with Zeiss numbers, that 40 lp/mm is the norm for any application, but I admit that high-res sensr=ors might be a game-changer for pixel-peeping, albeit not for everyday photography. And Roger is not a fool Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share #172 Posted October 18, 2020 Karbe perfectly explain Leica’s current philosophy : 1 snap shot = several photos. Fish eye + eagle eye in one picture. Leica think that you should be able to heavily crop any part of the image to extract another type of photograph with maximum image quality. That’s why you need 60lp/mm at 50% MTF at the minimum. Karbe also think that 100MP and more will be common place in the future. After all, there are rumors of a Canon RF with 83MP. So future proofing SL lenses are the best way to go. Sigma is also checking the quality of every lenses build with a 100MP equivalent sensor : its A1 benchmark tool Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 18, 2020 Share #173 Posted October 18, 2020 So the future is a100 MP Q and all other camera types will disappear? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share #174 Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) They will go to 170 or 200MP sky is the limit. If you are confortable with 1 micron photosite (aka typical smartphone size) MF 44x33 can reach 1.45 Giga Pixels ! And Full frame will reach 864MP. I guess that Q10 will support 10mm lens f/2 with limitless cropping abilities with 864MP. 😅 Edited October 18, 2020 by nicci78 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 18, 2020 Share #175 Posted October 18, 2020 And after that we'll never buy another lens or camera again. Leica has found the final cure for GAS - but it will deprive you of the opportunity to complain about incomplete lens lineups. 😵 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 18, 2020 Share #176 Posted October 18, 2020 18 hours ago, jaapv said: That has nothing to do with the lens size [...] It has to me. YMMV. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311632-hoping-that-cl2-mini-sl2/?do=findComment&comment=4064626'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 18, 2020 Share #177 Posted October 18, 2020 Yes but these are not lenses for mirrorless. You are comparing a couple of full-frame lenses, and small non-AF ones at that. It has absolutely nothing to do with the mirrorless full frame vs APS discussion which is the subject here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share #178 Posted October 18, 2020 6 hours ago, jaapv said: And after that we'll never buy another lens or camera again. Leica has found the final cure for GAS - but it will deprive you of the opportunity to complain about incomplete lens lineups. 😵 I made up my mind about incomplete lens lineup. TL line up is doomed. Just like S one. It is what it is. Leica will provide minimum service for TL customers with a future CL2. Just like they did with S3 for S lenses owners. Leica is a full frame company. They invent 24x36. So it is natural to stick with it. Sadly they tried to be the 3:2 aspect ratio company : 30x45, 24x36, APS-C, cropped multi-aspect m4/3, 1 inch. But it kind of failed. Leica is focusing everything into full frame : M and SL line up. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 18, 2020 Share #179 Posted October 18, 2020 They’ll have to do something about those monster SL lenses then. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share #180 Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) Compact full frame but MF = M. Full frame AF but big = SL. The writing is on the wall for APS-C : - No new TL lenses since November 2017. - Maike Harberts (APS-C product manager) saying in 2018 that TL lenses are covering most essential focal lengths from 17 to 200mm. - TL team was dismantled in 2018. - Stefan Daniels saying that APS-C just needs a little more love. From German it translates like : you will get minimum service. Seriously APS-C line up needs lots of love to be sustainable, not half hearted actions. Same thing happens to S line up. No new lens for ages. S3 is only a sensor upgrade. Everything else is the exact same. So if you are happy with current TL lenses and Sigma DC DN one. And that you like to adapt M and R lenses with 1.5x crop. CL line up is still relevant. If you expect more ? Get an SL and go full frame or buy Fujifilm X line to stick to APS-C It is very unfortunate. Because CL was the funniest camera I ever got. I still enjoy using it. The lack of lens makes me sad. And the lack of further real commitment is very disappointing. To say the least. Edited October 18, 2020 by nicci78 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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