Hoping that CL2 = mini SL2

[jaapv]

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[nicci78]

CL real competitor is Q2.

My Q2 is making my CL act as a niche camera. I am even considering selling it. Q2 with firmware 2.0 is now insanely good. The best camera from Leica. 

A CL only competent for long lenses (in my case) is not good enough without IBIS. I do not want to invest into L-mount lenses. I doubt that the system will ever gain enough traction to stay relevant. The competition is really strong. 

I will backed Leica behind its current M lenses and its legacy M & R lenses. And I am no sure to buy its L-mount lenses again. Making me think if keeping the CL makes any sense anymore. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by nicci78

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[Jeff S]

13 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

CL real competitor is Q2.

My Q2 is making my CL act as a niche camera. I am even considering selling it. Q2 with firmware 2.0 is now insanely good. The best camera from Leica. 

A CL only competent for long lenses (in my case) is not good enough without IBIS. I do not want to invest into L-mount lenses. I doubt that the system will ever gain enough traction to stay relevant. The competition is really strong. 

I will backed Leica behind its current M lenses and its legacy M & R lenses. And I am no sure to buy its L-mount lenses again. Making me think if keeping the CL makes any sense anymore. 

Did you just talk yourself out of your original post request? 
 

Jeff

[Rick in CO]

I think that what needs to be realized, in this discussion, is that Leica must have a product that occupies a niche in its line-up and which complements its other cameras, not compete with them.  The D-Lux 7 aside, the CL and TL2 are the entry level cameras into the Leica world.  The TL2 was a beautiful styling exercise to attract smartphone users with its unique ergonomics.  The CL is the mini-M with EVF and autofocus, face it, that many asked for.  Both are great travel cameras and it very likely depends on which camera, CL or TL2, has sold better as to which will be developed further.  

The TL2 would be significantly enhanced with a new high res accessory EVF.  A CL2 would improve with a higher res EVF and weather sealing.  Aside from IBIS, these changes are relatively straightforward and would be a simple evolution as opposed to a substantial upgrade (ie. IBIS) that might alter camera size. 

I agree that IBIS is essential for long lenses, but is that the CL/TL2's forte'?  I would love to see a compact 50mm, ie. moderate tele lens in autofocus, to complement the 18/23 TL lenses.  (Convert the discontinued 50 Summarit?)

[jaapv]

Long lenses are better served by O.I.S.  IBIS is more useful for standard focal lengths. 

[lct]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

You forgot to show this comparison...

I happen to use both cameras and feel little differences between them. As a full frame camera i would not mind to have a bigger body though.

[Rick in CO]

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7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Long lenses are better served by O.I.S.  IBIS is more useful for standard focal lengths. 

Thanks, I stand corrected, but the discussion concerned what might increase the camera body size.  Would OIS do that as well?

[Jeff S]

14 minutes ago, Rick in CO said:

Thanks, I stand corrected, but the discussion concerned what might increase the camera body size.  Would OIS do that as well?

OIS means optical image stabilization and typically resides in the lens (like the two longer SL zooms), not the body, which is IBIS (in-body image stabilization).

Jeff

[NERICSSON]

On 7/25/2020 at 7:30 AM, nicci78 said:

OIS (in lens) is impossible to add into wide angle lenses and very fast aperture ones. 

Q at 28/1.7 has OIS

[jaapv]

The Q is a fixed lens camera with an integrated lens/sensor design which is quite different from interchangeable lens cameras.

[NERICSSON]

IBOIS, In body OIS 😉

[DirkS]

I don`t miss IBIS at all. I like OIS for tele lenses because I don`t carry a tripod all the time but I don`t need more than that.

[Marac]

I need IBS in my legs, I climbed a small hill yesterday and came down it like Elvis dancing..

[nicci78]

Whatever you think about IBIS. The battle is already lost. Olympus were right since the beginning (as often, they are always ahead of competition : live view, mirrorless, IBIS, telecentric lenses, etc...) 

Every manufacturers (including Leica) adopted IBIS now.

What it means ? CL2 without IBIS = instant commercial failure. Which means the death of APS-C L-mount. It is as simple as that. 
Just like an IBIS-less SL2 would have killed commercially the Leica full frame L-mount line up. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by nicci78

[jaapv]

Yes, the commercial argument is clear. As is the commercial argument against the Monochrom, LCD-less camera’s, rangefinders, etc. Since when does Leica strive to be an  “everybody-is-doing-it" brand? 

[LocalHero1953]

I sold my Olympus EM5-ii - great looking camera, all the bells and whistles, including IBIS, but I had to relearn how to use it, with the manual, each time I picked it up. And that was an obvious commercial success for Olympus, given their subsequent history 😁. 

[tom0511]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb nicci78:

Whatever you think about IBIS. The battle is already lost. Olympus were right since the beginning (as often, they are always ahead of competition : live view, mirrorless, IBIS, telecentric lenses, etc...) 

Every manufacturers (including Leica) adopted IBIS now.

What it means ? CL2 without IBIS = instant commercial failure. Which means the death of APS-C L-mount. It is as simple as that. 
Just like an IBIS-less SL2 would have killed commercially the Leica full frame L-mount line up. 

depends if you buy a camera just for its features (no matter how much you do or dont benefit from them) or for the overall package of user interface and image quality.

 

[nicci78]

Olympus failed because of the too small sensor choice and other perks, like the inability to renew its menu system. 
But every other choice has been good and copy/adopted by the rest of the industry. 
 

CL is not the M with its loyal customers : faithful to optical rangefinder and mighty M lenses. In that range, Leica can answer every small niches with very very high price tag. 

CL is the Leica for the rest of us. And in that field. It has to compete with every other brands. With Nikon & Fujifilm joining the Olympus, Pentax, Panasonic and Sony IBIS bandwagon. Leica did not have any other choice than to add IBIS to SL2.  Now with Canon launching its first cameras with IBIS. Launching a CL2 without IBIS will be suicidal. 
 

How many SL owners upgrade to SL2 for IBIS alone ? I guess many more than for 47MP sensor. 
I was even ready to buy SL2 for IBIS... 

IBIS will solve a real problem for me, by adding stabilisation for hand holding long R lenses. Stable viewing = more accurate manual focusing + lower shutter speed, allowing lower ISO. 

IBIS is even more important, when Leica only sold 3 lenses with OIS : Summilux-Q 28mm asph of Q/Q2  + Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90mm Asph + APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL 90-280mm. 
So 99% of Leica’s lenses do not any form of stabilisation. 
 

Hopefully Leica already knew all of this and will release CL2 with weather sealing and IBIS. 

[lct]

15 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

CL is the Leica for the rest of us. And in that field. It has to compete with every other brands. With Nikon & Fujifilm joining the Olympus, Pentax, Panasonic and Sony IBIS bandwagon. Leica did not have any other choice than to add IBIS to SL2.  Now with Canon launching its first cameras with IBIS. Launching a CL2 without IBIS will be suicidal. 

Seems like you are mixing FF and APS here. How many compact APS cameras have IBIS actually? Just curious.

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[LocalHero1953]

@nicci78, I admire and respect your certainties, which are encouraging to read in this world of doubt. I don't share them. 
You have often said you are taking a different course and will be selling all your CL kit. I am happy with the CL, looking forward to the CL2 with or without IBIS.