M10R

[FrozenInTime]

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In two or three more generations , could see the M series getting a global shutter sensor ; which coupled with on-board accelerometers and multi-shot computational photography could yield non-mechanical IBIS and hyper-resolution , and cough video.  For now I’m happy they keep the camera simple, slim and solid.

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[tom.w.bn]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Casey Jefferson:

I came from GFX 50R and now M240 shooter. Apart from the shadow recovery that isn't as good as the GFX (well there's M10) there really nothing I would like it to improve.

 

"that isn't as good". That's a polite description. The M240 is horrible at shadow recovery / pushing in lowlight. The M240 was a great camera for me, except in low light situations. 

[Anakronox]

1 hour ago, Casey Jefferson said:

I came from GFX 50R and now M240 shooter. Apart from the shadow recovery that isn't as good as the GFX (well there's M10) there really nothing I would like it to improve.

A high resolution M camera is always a welcome but it doesn't take long for one to realize high megapixels will only lead to more frustrations. It was such a relief to have gone back to 24mp and I can shoot more liberally.

I also shoot with the GFX 50R, but it's for very specific types of shooting.  For landscapes, long exposures, and studio shooting, it's fantastic.  I have that for when I need color and ultra resolution, dynamic range, solid high ISO performance, and highlight/shadow recovery.  It is definitely not a street or travel camera!

[fatihayoglu]

11 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

What camera do you have in mind? 

My first exposure to multishot was with Olympus, who also pioneered IBIS as it is currently done with a moveable sensor   I spent some time in researching super-resolution based on taking multiple shots with random displacements and then averaging them, using bezel-mounted cameras in early Thinkpad laptops (circa 1997 or so).  And example was capturing business cards by holding them in your hand in front of the camera  Your natural shakiness gave rise to lots of images, each slightly displaced.  It works fine (and somebody is probably using it in cellphones today).  But there is no magic to it, just a slight improvement in resolution results.  So moving the sensor by half pixel steps is a much bigger improvement.

Sinarback 44 was a multi shot camera back announced in 2001 which could take 1, 4 or 16 multishots is in my mind.

microscanning with piezoelectronics were hot topics at the beginning of 00s. IBIS built on that idea with gyroscope and more axis. For multi shot, you don’t need to have all axises, you just need to move the sensor in 2D, horizontally and vertically. IBIS can do that plus angle the sensor and move in z axis as well.

Edited June 27, 2020 by fatihayoglu

[Casey Jefferson]

1 hour ago, tom.w.bn said:

"that isn't as good". That's a polite description. The M240 is horrible at shadow recovery / pushing in lowlight. The M240 was a great camera for me, except in low light situations. 

I can recover under exposed shot by about 2~2 1/2 ev (at or close to base ISO) and still look good to me, maybe I'm not a demanding shooter. I didn't find GFX excel in low light shooting either, due to the need of higher shutter speed with the slower lens. If anything, with a Leica lens attached, I much prefer how it renders. Leica lens seem to suck in colors in different ways.

54 minutes ago, Anakronox said:

I also shoot with the GFX 50R, but it's for very specific types of shooting.  For landscapes, long exposures, and studio shooting, it's fantastic.  I have that for when I need color and ultra resolution, dynamic range, solid high ISO performance, and highlight/shadow recovery.  It is definitely not a street or travel camera!

Can't deny that, GFX can handle harsh tonal transition well hence flash photography and landscape. I use mine for travel mostly and without any control over lightings, M240 fit much better into that category.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Casey Jefferson

[Anakronox]

10 minutes ago, Casey Jefferson said:

Can't deny that, GFX can handle harsh tonal transition well hence flash photography and landscape. I use mine for travel mostly and without any control over lightings, M240 fit much better into that category.

Basically, same for me except my travel/all around cameras are the M10 and M10M.  The GFX doesn't get used as much unless I'm using studio lights or putting it on a tripod.  Up to 3200 ISO I find it's very good with the 45 f/2.8 and 63 f/2.8 primes.

[budjames]

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I own the M10 (my first Leica), an M10 converted to M10P and the SL2. I bought a used SL for the excellent condition 24-90 lens but upgraded to the SL2 when it became available.

Shooting M lenses on the SL2 with the Leica adapter is a nice experience, however, I prefer the M10 for shooting M lenses.  The higher resolution SL2 sensor and IBIS is great so  it's easy to get hooked on the higher resolution even though you don't really need it to make great prints. I never print wider than 17 inches because that is the widest paper that my Epson P800 can accept. I have many great 16" x 20" prints from my M10s, but you can notice the resolution difference in similar images printed from the SL2.

I emailed my Leica store in SoHo, NY, to put my name on the M10-R waiting list. I will sell my M10 to help finance the upgrade.

Regards,
Bud James

[farnz]

This thread is like watching children gazing at their wrapped presents under the tree on Christmas Eve as they wait for the time to glacially tick by until Christmas morning arrives!

Pete.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, farnz said:

This thread is like watching children gazing at their wrapped presents under the tree on Christmas Eve as they wait for the time to glacially tick by until Christmas morning arrives!

Pete.

So, like virtually every forum discussion  concerning new product introductions, wish lists, or wait list/delivery anticipation.  The M10R conversation actually seems a bit more subdued to me than most. But sure to follow with the usual post-arrival critiques and discussions about Christmases to come.  And more about the bags to re-wrap those presents so they always feel like gifts.

Jeff

[M11 for me]

If I remember well, Leica said that they will have a high and a normal MPix Version of the M10. To me that would make sense. As a matter of fact we still will have the M as the 24 MPix Version after the the R-Version will be announced. There are a lot of users who will not need hight resolution. 

[ERA23]

Hey guys, i went to leica today and tried to extract some information about the m10-r with modest sucess. The biggest question i had was about battery but unfortunatly they don't even know if Leica is going to update the battery do you guys have any toughts on this topic? Do you think it could fit the Leica m10's?

[onasj]

1 hour ago, ERA23 said:

Hey guys, i went to leica today and tried to extract some information about the m10-r with modest sucess. The biggest question i had was about battery but unfortunatly they don't even know if Leica is going to update the battery do you guys have any toughts on this topic? Do you think it could fit the Leica m10's?

I think the dimensions and battery will be identical to the M10, M10P, and M10M, based on 1) the FCC filings, 2) the Noshikita product photos, and 3) the possibility that recent M10 shortages arose because those bodies were being shunted instead to be finished as M10Rs.

[ERA23]

1 hour ago, onasj said:

I think the dimensions and battery will be identical to the M10, M10P, and M10M, based on 1) the FCC filings, 2) the Noshikita product photos, and 3) the possibility that recent M10 shortages arose because those bodies were being shunted instead to be finished as M10Rs.

That's what they said at the leica store, that although they haven't heard nothing in regards the m10-r (of course it does not exist) in case there would ever be one, a new battery would be unlikely. Although i don't understand how a sensor that will obviosuly be much more energy hungry could be handled by such a weak battery. That's why i wanted an improved battery for the m10-r

[farnz]

I don't find the M10's battery to be 'weak' unless I'm continually using the Visoflex, which is rare, and spare batteries are easily carried.  That might affected if the M10R presents considerably more load to the battery from processing more MPx, particularly if needing to render jpegs each time.

Pete.

[Jeff S]

16 minutes ago, ERA23 said:

That's what they said at the leica store, that although they haven't heard nothing in regards the m10-r (of course it does not exist) in case there would ever be one, a new battery would be unlikely. Although i don't understand how a sensor that will obviosuly be much more energy hungry could be handled by such a weak battery. That's why i wanted an improved battery for the m10-r

The M10 Monochrom, with higher MP sensor, has the same battery.  I wouldn’t expect otherwise with an M10R. I could imagine complaints from owners of multiple M10 platforms if different batteries or chargers were required, unless interchangeable.

Jeff

Edited June 27, 2020 by Jeff S

[Dennis]

I'm delighted with my M10. Love it. Not only it introduced me to the Leica world, but it made me feel photography differently: more committed, more passionate. I do love my 24MP. When I think of a high MPx sensor and IBIS, my mind goes to the Mirrorless camera like the SL2: big cameras with big lenses, videos, EVF, multi shots, or a Sony, with tens of buttons. It looks more a computer than takes photos rather than a camera with a processor. I enjoy using all the buttons and functions of my Nikon D5, it's a beast but is a tool. I ALWAYS enjoy taking photos, but the D5 is like a computer to use to browse. I use it to enjoy photography, but I don't enjoy the machine itself. Do you know what I mean? I feel the same with mirrorless cameras.

I unquestionably enjoy more to shoot with the M10; it's like the essence of photography. It's about you and the scene to photograph, with a camera in between. 
I hope Leica doesn't mess up the M system with the new M10R and doesn't change the body size to put IBIS or other "modern" technical stuff, haha. I think the M system's essence is minimalism, a few buttons, and functions, to ensure the perfect mechanical engineering.
 
Only one thing. Without sacrificing the size, a dual card slot would be very welcome and, at least for me, a game-changer.

[onasj]

The nice thing about 40some megapixels, in my opinion, is it is an ideal balance between crop freedom/detail capture and practical file size for transfer, storage, or manipulation. I agree that dual SD cards would be a meaningful addition. Whenever I shoot an M lens on the a7riii/a7riv I am reminded that IBIS would be on my list for the pinnacle of digital M-ness.  I appreciate that everyone has their own line beyond which the M loses its soul.  For me, the line for an ultimate Leica rangefinder looks like:

WANTED: 40-50 MP with very good noise performance to at least 12,800 ISO (preferably 25,000!), M10 dimensions, OVF, IBIS, 2 SD card slots, everything else unchanged.

NOT WANTED: EVF (EVFs are great but then, to me, it’s not a rangefinder but rather a fundamentally different camera), any increase in size, any added bulk (no larger grip or thumb rest, even if a cool faux film advance lever).

Very soon Leica will come close to this ideal (minus the IBIS and probably minus the dual SD cards).

Edited June 28, 2020 by onasj

[Jeff S]

37 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I'm delighted with my M10. Love it. Not only it introduced me to the Leica world, but it made me feel photography differently: more committed, more passionate. I do love my 24MP. When I think of a high MPx sensor and IBIS, my mind goes to the Mirrorless camera like the SL2: big cameras with big lenses, videos, EVF, multi shots, or a Sony, with tens of buttons. It looks more a computer than takes photos rather than a camera with a processor. I enjoy using all the buttons and functions of my Nikon D5, it's a beast but is a tool. I ALWAYS enjoy taking photos, but the D5 is like a computer to use to browse. I use it to enjoy photography, but I don't enjoy the machine itself. Do you know what I mean? I feel the same with mirrorless cameras.

I unquestionably enjoy more to shoot with the M10; it's like the essence of photography. It's about you and the scene to photograph, with a camera in between. 
I hope Leica doesn't mess up the M system with the new M10R and doesn't change the body size to put IBIS or other "modern" technical stuff, haha. I think the M system's essence is minimalism, a few buttons, and functions, to ensure the perfect mechanical engineering.
 
Only one thing. Without sacrificing the size, a dual card slot would be very welcome and, at least for me, a game-changer.

Again, the M10 Monochrom already has the 40 MP sensor (and effectively significantly higher resolution than 40 MP due to lack of Bayer array and resultant interpolation), and it functions and handles just like an M10.  If the M10R shares its sensor, with added Bayer array, I would expect the same simplicity of design, no IBIS, etc.  As far as future generations, who knows, but I suspect that there will always be a basic RF M, as long as demand supports, just as film Ms have continued in the digital world.

Jeff

Edited June 28, 2020 by Jeff S

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Anakronox]

5 hours ago, Dennis said:

I ALWAYS enjoy taking photos, but the D5 is like a computer to use to browse. I use it to enjoy photography, but I don't enjoy the machine itself. Do you know what I mean? I feel the same with mirrorless cameras.

I unquestionably enjoy more to shoot with the M10; it's like the essence of photography. It's about you and the scene to photograph, with a camera in between. 
I hope Leica doesn't mess up the M system with the new M10R and doesn't change the body size to put IBIS or other "modern" technical stuff, haha. I think the M system's essence is minimalism, a few buttons, and functions, to ensure the perfect mechanical engineering.

I know exactly what you mean!  I’m not a professional photographer though.  Just last week I finally sold my Nikon gear: the D850, Z6, and a TON of good Nikon glass.  Since getting my M10, I appreciated what great photos the Nikons could produce, but I did not enjoy using them.  I replaced them a while back with a Fuji GFX 50R, which doesn’t have as many buttons (still way more than I’d like honestly).  My Ms make 90% or more of my photos because they are simple, purposeful tools that don’t complicate taking a photograph.  

[scott kirkpatrick]

I put up a post a little while ago asking what is Leica up to with no announcements in the past six months.  I thought a CL with IBIS would be a natural use of their time, but that would also need dealing with a new chip.  An M10-R with just a new chip, with many electronic similarities to the M10-M 40 MPx chip, would bring in more money and involve less risk, so I guess we GAS sufferers will have an M10-R for this summer and pine for that CL+ for Christmas at the earliest.