Leica ELMARIT-M 90mm f/2.8 and Leica Macro-Elmar M90mm F4 (previous small aperture ring version)

[Good To Be Retired]

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Some information from experienced parties please.  I'm interested in hearing the first hand opinions of owners of both of these lenses, at f4, f5.6, and f8,  regarding comparing and contrasting these two lenses, please.  Any information from personal experience with both lenses would be very useful.  Only the versions shown please.  Thanx in advance for allowing me to benefit from your personal experiences.

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Edited June 9, 2020 by Good To Be Retired

[tgray]

I love the 90 Macro. Great lens, easy to focus, wonderful pictures. The macro adapter is fun as well, but without it, it is a wonderful lens, particularly if you don’t shoot with the focal length a lot and are traveling.   It is sharp enough for me wide open.

Never used the other lens but I do like the 90 macro more than my pre-ASPH 90 Summicron FWIW.

I sold mine some years ago and rebought it recently. I sold it because my set wasn’t 6bit coded and I gambled that I would be able to rebuy a used already-coded set for less than what I sold for plus what Leica charged for the two parts. I was right. 

[Ouroboros]

I use film and have the 90mm elmarit-m f2.8 which I pair with my 28mm summicron asph v1  Conveniently, they share the 46mm filter thread.  It's a fine lens.

I've promised myself for a long time I'll also get the 90mm macro elmar-m f4 for travel and for the 39mm filter thread it shares with my CV 28mm f3.5, 35mm summicron asph and 50mm elmar-m f2.8

Filter sizes apart, I think the comparison comes down to their respective weight and bulk and whether the 1-stop increase in aperture of the elmarit-m is an advantage that outweighs the benefits of the macro elmar-m.

You really would not go wrong with either lens.  The best thing is to try both first if you can.  

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ouroboros

[Good To Be Retired]

36 minutes ago, tgray said:

I love the 90 Macro. Great lens, easy to focus, wonderful pictures. The macro adapter is fun as well, but without it, it is a wonderful lens, particularly if you don’t shoot with the focal length a lot and are traveling.   It is sharp enough for me wide open.

Never used the other lens but I do like the 90 macro more than my pre-ASPH 90 Summicron FWIW.

This is very interesting, thank you.  Could you elaborate further please?  This is a sort of sideline thought I'm also investigating.

I sold mine some years ago and rebought it recently. I sold it because my set wasn’t 6bit coded and I gambled that I would be able to rebuy a used already-coded set for less than what I sold for plus what Leica charged for the two parts. I was right. 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Good To Be Retired

[tgray]

Things I don’t like about the 90 Summicron:

• Heavier
• stiffer and longer focus throw
• focus seems slightly off on my M10M wide open. Or I have trouble accurately focusing it  Don’t recall having the same issues on film.

The thing about 90mm and my shooting style is that it’s not a focal length that is overly useful (on film) in low light. Shutter speed needs to be high enough to preclude camera shake, coupled with ISO limits, means that even a 90/2 is marginally useful. On top of that, I’m usually closer to my subjects indoors so I don’t need the reach. On digital it’s a bit different.  The high ISO capability expands the window of usefulness, but I usually get much better pics with a 50/1.4 (or 75/1.4 when I owned one).

Long story short, 90 is mostly a daylight, outdoors lens for me, and 90/4 is fine for that.  Even better, the 90/4 focuses closer.  Other people obviously might have other needs. 

[luigi bertolotti]

I have both...(in chrome... 😉) the Elmarit M bought 6 years before the Macro Elmar M (bought used from a Forum menber, btw) and admit that the Elmarit M is someway neglected from the last acquisition : the Macro has an unbeatable compactness which for me, as a mountain hiker, is a big plus... add the macro accessories (also very light to carry) and is very rare that I decide not to bring it with me as "the 90 to use". As for rendering... well maybe a small plus for the Elmarit at 5,6/8 around... but I say this just beacuse happened that with both I made a pair of very large prints (in the 40x50 cm range) : Elmarit is of top sharpness (comparable to Summarit 75) but is a difference that on my "usual" 20x30 prints is hardly perceivable.

frankly, wasn't for the golden rule "never sell a Leica lens", I could even sell the Elmarit M... 1 stop more isn't so important (and have also a Summicron of the very last series...).

 ergonomy in usage : ok, the Elmarit is more "classic"... the Elmar has to be extended and its focusing rim is a bit less "friendly" to operate... and the excellent retractable hood of the Elmarit can't be compared with the one of the Macro Elmar, which is as practical as the IUFOO of my venerable Tele Elmarit 90 of the '60s...🙄  Generally, I think that for some kind of shooting the Elmarit can be preferred as for handling : camera in right hand and left hand to support the lens.. this is more "natural" with the solid barrel of the Elmarit M.

Anyway , 90 continues to be one of my preferred focal... so I find the way to use all mine (though, as I said, Macro Elmar is today the preferred one)

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Edited June 9, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[adan]

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I've used and owned (at least briefly) all three 90s mentioned thus far.

At f/2.8-4, the 1980-design Summicron does not compete well, although it is catching up fast by f/5.6. It is heavier (function of being a stop faster and larger - you can't fool Mother Physics).

it was pretty much known, prior to the 90 APO-Summicron, that any f/2.8 90mm would outperform any 90 Summicron, until well down into the middle-apertures.

It should be noted that the Elmarit-M began life as an Elmarit-R in 1980, same year as the compact pre-ASPH Summicron. But they are quite different, in color, contrast, resolution. The optics were "ported" to M mount around 1990.

I tried the 90 Macro a couple of times, and found that:

1) the ergonomics are just silly and uncomfortable (sliding it in and out, the pinchy, narrow aperture ring, which, turned to f/22 without care, will unlock the collapsing movement) - the lighter weight does not make up for that, for me.

2) it is not actually a great macro lens - my 75 Summicron with floating element is noticably sharper in the close-up range in the studio, by f/4.

Disclosure: I currently have a 90 Summicron-M for when I want "long and fast" and/or Leitz-Canada color/contrast - and a 75 ASMA when I don't need the reach or Mandler qualities, but want "sharp as a tack." The Elmarit-M is generally closer to the modern 75 Summicron imaging, throughout the aperture range mentioned and beyond.

But - the Elmarit-M has a tendency to flare in digital M cameras, or at least my M10. It has too little fall-off or vignetting, thus the spill light reflecting from the camera walls is brighter and produces substantial fog or streaks at times, even with the built-in hood extended. The 90 Summicron-M, and also the 90 Summarit f/2.5, have more vignetting and thus less-prominent flare. Pay your money and take your choice. (The Summarit f/2.4 I tried had some flare issues at times - possibly Leica forgot to black-paint one of the front element rims).

Frankly, as you can tell, I'm good at finding flaws in virtually every M-mount 90mm. Which is why I actually tend to use a 75/135 combination instead, unless the light or situation require something longer than 75 and also faster than f/4.

If Leica had introduce a revised 90 ASMA that performed in every way like the 75 ASMA (FLE close-up quality and 0.8m close-focus limit) - it would have saved me 15 years of short-tele headaches.

But from your short list, I would take the Elmarit-M without hesitation (and then just be careful around bright backlights - if your camera is digital).

Edited June 9, 2020 by adan

[m410]

Hi Retired,

I have owned both the 90mm 2.8 ELMARIT and the 90mm f4 MACRO-ELMAR as you have indicated in your attached photos and have used them on a M4 and M6 and the digital M240 and now M10.  Sorry, I don't have specific aperture comparisons between the two lenses but almost all my photography is done at f4 and f5.6.  I use my Leica primarily for long distance travel around the world requiring me to have everything with me all the time.  The 90 ELMARIT I found to be sharp and okay to handle  but a bit heavy and taking more room in my camera bag or pocket than I wanted.  I didn't need f2.8 lens speed as I have other fast lenses for low light.  A few years ago I traded my 90mm ELMARIT for the 90mm MACRO-ELMAR.  I have found the 90mm MACRO-ELMAR to produce sharper images and of course to be much lighter and smaller.  Perhaps the fact that the lens is physically shorter than the 90mm ELMARIT (and all other 90mm's) also helps with easier to hold steady handling for less exaggeration of camera movement.

It has a 39mm filter size which matches most of my other Leica travel lenses. It is a perfect travel lens and I couple it with a 28mm ELMARIT ASPH II or 35mm SUMMICRON f2 ASPH II.  Most of the time I keep the lens in the extended position.  You might take a look at the MTF charts as a starting point for your decision.

Photo taken in the Red Sea from a pitching ship of another pitching ship hand held at 1/1000.  Leica M10+90mm MACRO-ELMAR.

jDD

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Edited June 9, 2020 by m410

[lct]

I own both a 90/4 macro v1 and a late 90/2.8 but the latter has less use due to its bulk and 1m MFD. Otherwise it is hard to tell which is which from f/4 to f/8 to be honest. The 90/4 macro has a bit more distortion and a bit less CA but otherwise both lenses are very good indeed. The 90/4 macro has perhaps a bit more acutance (not so sure) but it is also a bit more prone to flare when strong light sources are just outside the frame. None is flare free anyway. My advice FWIW: the 90/4 macro is irreplaceable due to its small size and shorter MFD if you don't need f/2.8. Works fine with Leica macro-adapters v1 and v2 too.

Edited June 9, 2020 by lct

[otto.f]

I’ve owned both lenses and both liked them. Although it would be a bit painfull having not a 90 with a wider aperture, I would go for the Macro because it has a very sympathetic drawing and it works fast together with very sharp images. I still regret having sold it, which I don’t with the 2.8. The 2.8 is a nice lens, but I would want a 2.0 apo asph in the end anyway for more selective focus. 

[m410]

Don't know if these pdf files will show correctly but here is the 90mm Elmarit MTF chart and below the MTF performance of the 90mm Macro-Elmar.  Never attempted loading PDF's before to the l-camera forum.

Let us know which way you go and perhaps why...

1-Elmarit-M 90 mm Technical Data_en copy.pdf 2-Elmar-Macro-M90mmF4 copy.pdf

Edited June 10, 2020 by m410

[FDS]

Whichever lens you choose, test and make sure that the particular example that you are buying is calibrated to focus correctly with the rangefinder of your camera/s.   There's plenty about this topic if you do a search within the forum.   I've had problems in the past when buying both the 90mm Elmarit and 90mm Macro Elmar in this regard.    When buying new, an exchange can be made or warranty servicing can be done at Wetzlar.   Buying secondhand is trickier, however, unless you work with a knowledgeable and cooperative dealer.   If you see an example that has been 'six-bitted' by the factory --either when manufactured or later when serviced--  you'll have a greater probability of getting  one adjusted to be within the necessary tolerances.    

[newnew]

I had the Elmarit for some time. I liked the image quality very much.  It has also great bokeh full open. But over time with travels, It was bulky to carry as I wanted to carry 3 lenses in a small bag. here came a new but discounted Macro Elmar and I have traded the Elmarit against it. Since then I am also very happy with the quality and additional macro possibilities with the Elmar. This said , Adan is right that its use is more messy , including the hood that needs to be properly locked in place all the time. So , not a lens for quick lens change on the action. You need to decide to shoot at 90 and stay there for a moment. In terms of IQ no complaints and rather the contrary. vs Elmarit .

An additional advantage , I happened to buy a Leica macro adapter ring (the new version) . So you can mount the lens on it and still use it in non macro mode if the lens is not pulled out. The advantage is to be able to do macro quickly if you want to take flowers or so during a trip. (I use a 240)

Edited June 10, 2020 by newnew

[otto.f]

7 hours ago, FDS said:

test and make sure

True, I tried to re-buy a Macro Elmar 90, but did not find one thus far which was properly adjusted to my rangefinders of MM1 and M9 which are perfect for all my other lenses including a 90 and a 135. There’s hardly any dealer around who wouldn’t let you make some pictures with it on your own digital M

[Rick in CO]

On 6/10/2020 at 10:55 AM, otto.f said:

True, I tried to re-buy a Macro Elmar 90, but did not find one thus far which was properly adjusted to my rangefinders of MM1 and M9 which are perfect for all my other lenses including a 90 and a 135. There’s hardly any dealer around who wouldn’t let you make some pictures with it on your own digital M

I recently sold my older 90 f4 collapsible Elmar for a 6-bit 90 Macro Elmar-M, upgrading for the newer design and the 6-bit convenience. 

Purchased it from NYC by mail, returnable for any reason within 30 days for the price of mailing.

Using the 90 Macro Elmar takes some acclimation and I don't use the Leica hood, but  it is very sharp with great contrast on my M10 and is a great pocketable travel lens.

I have been using my Father's 50 Summitar with an M adapter for years, so I may be used to the collapsible lenses.

No experience with the 90 Elmarit-M, did have a while ago the 90 non-apo Summicron which was very good but like carrying around an second tripod.

 

 

[fotografr]

I just posted this in the flower thread of the Nature and Wildlife section, so will copy it here. I've not owned the Macro Elmar, but am very attached to the 90 Elmarit. The image I posted is about 20% of the original file.

"My "macro" lens is my 90mm Elmarit, one of the Walter Mandler designs. When used with the M10M, the sharpness of that lens combined with a 40MP sensor allows an unbelievable amount of cropping and enlarging. It's long been one of my favorite M lenses, even more so now. The price for them in near mint condition is ridiculously low making it one of the best bargains in Leica lenses. In my opinion, it's vastly underappreciated.

M10M, 90 Elmarit"

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Edited June 28, 2020 by fotografr

[LeicaS2]

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I have had the 90 macro for over a month and love the photos and the size.

If I am walking around with a small M camera hanging from my shoulder, I do not want a telephoto lens sticking out. As it did with all the other options I had used in the past. Actually I should say not used, but left behind. This is not the best lens for portrait if you want narrow depth of field, but otherwise versatile and excellent if it’s a v2. f4 is plenty otherwise with higher ISO options with the M10M.
I had had a collapsible 50 in the past, and it really didn’t save that much space. The 90 macro saves a lot of space and weight.
My walk around set is a 21mm and the 90 in a pocket or the other way around. 
Jack

[otto.f]

9 hours ago, fotografr said:

it's vastly underappreciated.

Yes, I agree. I owned it and admired its contrast besides its sharpness a lot. I think in this case the competition within Leica was too strong. The APO Summicron is only 100 grams heavier and has with its 2.0 a very special selective focus and out of focus image quality. I even sold my MacroElmar 90 because my  cropped APO 90 images were more to my liking than the macro shots from the 4.0.

[lct]

•

Edited June 29, 2020 by lct

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