Weird thing in a Summaron 35mm F2.8

[Bart Frassee]

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Hi everybody

I have a Summaron 35mm F2.8 which has a weird thing on one of the lenses. That thing seems too clearly defined and too transparent to be anything organic. Could it be a drop of glue? In addition, there is also a small wire in the lens. It seems either the original assembly or a later repair had been carried out somewhat sloppily. The attached images show the lens from behind.

I would be grateful for input on what it is and whether it needs to be dealt with or can be left as is.

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[james.liam]

Fern-like fungus. 

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[jdlaing]

Maybe Balsam separation?

[a5m]

12 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

Maybe Balsam separation?

^this. It’s separation. Had it on a Thambar copy, confirmed by DAG. He said he’d be willing to fix it on that, but not sure about this lens.

[spydrxx]

If it doesn't impair your photos, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Ecar]

Definitely "flower" separation. Shouldn't affect your pictures at this stage. It may or may not get worse. If it does, it's probably worth fixing, but it comes at a cost (and risk).

[james.liam]

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you guys sure it isn't fungi?

[Bart Frassee]

Thanks everybody for your input.

13 hours ago, a5m said:

^this. It’s separation. Had it on a Thambar copy, confirmed by DAG. He said he’d be willing to fix it on that, but not sure about this lens.

I was thinking of that, too. But wouldn't one expect separation to start at the edges of the lens, where air could get in between the surfaces?
@a5m did the separation in your Thambar start in the middle of the lens, too? How much did it cost to have it fixed?

6 hours ago, Ecar said:

Definitely "flower" separation. Shouldn't affect your pictures at this stage. It may or may not get worse. If it does, it's probably worth fixing, but it comes at a cost (and risk).

It is not visible in the pictures. As long as the separation does not progress, I'd be OK with it.

Does anyone have experience with the progression of lens separation of this kind? What are the chances that it stays put? What are the chances that the lens deteriorates quickly?

[Ecar]

20 minutes ago, Bart Frassee said:

Does anyone have experience with the progression of lens separation of this kind? What are the chances that it stays put? What are the chances that the lens deteriorates quickly?

Impossible to say, really. I have a Hektor 73/1.9 with a tiny separation "flower" next to the center of the front element and it hasn't grown in years. On the other hand, I've had a couple of lenses where it deteriorated relatively quickly and required re-cementing of the affected element - but these suffered mostly from edge separation. I suspect that storage and usage conditions (temperature, humidity, etc.) may also play an important role.

I wouldn't worry until it starts to have a visible effect on pictures - or until you decide to sell the lens (most people won't buy a lens with separation, or you'd have to offer a discount that's possibly larger than the cost of having it fixed).

Edited May 17, 2020 by Ecar

[farnz]

2 hours ago, Bart Frassee said:

Does anyone have experience with the progression of lens separation of this kind? What are the chances that it stays put? What are the chances that the lens deteriorates quickly?

I don't but it seems logical to me that changes in temperature are likely to make it worse as the elements expand and contract as they get warmer or cooler.

Pete.

[a5m]

4 hours ago, Bart Frassee said:

Thanks everybody for your input.

I was thinking of that, too. But wouldn't one expect separation to start at the edges of the lens, where air could get in between the surfaces?
@a5m did the separation in your Thambar start in the middle of the lens, too? How much did it cost to have it fixed?

I know, it starting at the edge makes more sense but apparently it can just start in the center, where it was on the Thambar. I opted not to fix it and just sold it as is. It wasn’t really affecting images anyway given the intended rendering of the lens.

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[Bart Frassee]

8 hours ago, Ecar said:

Impossible to say, really. I have a Hektor 73/1.9 with a tiny separation "flower" next to the center of the front element and it hasn't grown in years. On the other hand, I've had a couple of lenses where it deteriorated relatively quickly and required re-cementing of the affected element - but these suffered mostly from edge separation. I suspect that storage and usage conditions (temperature, humidity, etc.) may also play an important role.

Thanks for the information. Essentially, I'll have to wait then an see what applies to me and my lens.

8 hours ago, Ecar said:

I wouldn't worry until it starts to have a visible effect on pictures - or until you decide to sell the lens (most people won't buy a lens with separation, or you'd have to offer a discount that's possibly larger than the cost of having it fixed).

Yes, this seems to be a reasonable approach.

[Bart Frassee]

4 hours ago, a5m said:

I know, it starting at the edge makes more sense but apparently it can just start in the center, where it was on the Thambar. I opted not to fix it and just sold it as is. It wasn’t really affecting images anyway given the intended rendering of the lens.

I see, thanks anyway. And thanks for posting the picture of your lens with the separation. The effect visible in your Thambar really looks similar to what I can see in my Summaron.

[Bart Frassee]

6 hours ago, farnz said:

I don't but it seems logical to me that changes in temperature are likely to make it worse as the elements expand and contract as they get warmer or cooler.

Pete.

Yes, seems logical. But if I am going to use the lens it will inevitably get used in snowy winter weather and in hot summer weather. I guess I have no choice then but to hope that the separation doesn't make progress under 'normal' using conditions (*fingers crossed*).

[farnz]

21 minutes ago, Bart Frassee said:

Yes, seems logical. But if I am going to use the lens it will inevitably get used in snowy winter weather and in hot summer weather. I guess I have no choice then but to hope that the separation doesn't make progress under 'normal' using conditions (*fingers crossed*).

The thing that will accelerate the separation will be 'thermal shock', which is step changes in temperature, such as going from the snow into a warm room or vice versa.  Providing that the change in temperature is as gradual as possible then it's likely to have a great effect.  

To slow down the change in temperature might require as little as making sure that the lens (and camera) are in a bag so that the contents are shielded from the temperature change while the bag itself and the air inside it warm up or cool down.

Pete.

[Pyrogallol]

Just seen a lens for sale that has lots of little flowers like yours, separation?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ernst-Leitz-Wetzlar-Hektor-1-1-9-7-3cm-Objektiv-Leica-M39-lens-1-9-7-3cm-MF017/264734372552?hash=item3da365f2c8%3Ag%3AjacAAOSw6HtewdnT&LH_Auction=1

 

 

 

[Bart Frassee]

11 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

Just seen a lens for sale that has lots of little flowers like yours, separation?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ernst-Leitz-Wetzlar-Hektor-1-1-9-7-3cm-Objektiv-Leica-M39-lens-1-9-7-3cm-MF017/264734372552?hash=item3da365f2c8%3Ag%3AjacAAOSw6HtewdnT&LH_Auction=1

Wow, this looks bad! I am no expert on such matter, though it seems to look very similar to what my lens has, just a lot bigger and a lot more of it.