I think I have the M10M Bug

[jplomley]

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So here is the scoop....long time M user, over 20 years. Had a pair of M8's then M9's to which I added the M9M...skipped the M240 generation and have been shooting with an M10 for the past 2 years. Always regretted selling the M9M, and just the other evening was looking at some RAW files just loving the rich blacks and those beautiful mid-tones. Now I love the M10, best digital M to date with nothing left to be desired IMHO. They absolutely nailed it on this latest generation. Loving the form and function of the M10 platform, I am now considering adding the M10M. Will I be disappointed in the image quality compared to the M9M. Do the M10M files have that same "bite" as the M9M, and "grit" at higher ISO? If anyone could share some RAW files, it would very much be appreciated. Might help alleviate any last bits of trepidation in taking the leap back to a monochrom only camera. Should I make the move, it shall be the Leitz Wetzlar edition...brings back fond memories of the M4-P I used for over a decade

Edited April 23, 2020 by jplomley

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[T25UFO]

21 hours ago, jplomley said:

So here is the scoop....long time M user, over 20 years. Had a pair of M8's then M9's to which I added the M9M...skipped the M240 generation and have been shooting with an M10 for the past 2 years. Always regretted selling the M9M, and just the other evening was looking at some RAW files just loving the rich blacks and those beautiful mid-tones. Now I love the M10, best digital M to date with nothing left to be desired IMHO. They absolutely nailed it on this latest generation. Loving the form and function of the M10 platform, I am now considering adding the M10M. Will I be disappointed in the image quality compared to the M9M. Do the M10M files have that same "bite" as the M9M, and "grit" at higher ISO? If anyone could share some RAW files, it would very much be appreciated. Might help alleviate any last bits of trepidation in taking the leap back to a monochrom only camera. Should I make the move, it shall be the Leitz Wetzlar edition...brings back fond memories of the M4-P I used for over a decade

I don't think you will be disappointed.  Here is one example I posted this in the M10M image thread a couple of days ago.  Nothing particularly remarkable in this photo:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Until you realise it is an extreme crop taken from the dark shadows of this photo:

The shadow recovery is just amazing, as is the ability to crop and still have a good size image to print.  I had the M9M but the M10M takes B&W photography to a whole new level.  Also benefits from the slimmer M10 form factor, much better viewfinder and the whisper quiet shutter of the P and D versions.  Thoroughly recommended.

Edited April 24, 2020 by T25UFO

[Jeff S]

If you have a US connection, or are close to the border, an alternative approach could be to rent one for a few days for few hundred bucks...

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/leica-m10-monochrom

Jeff

 

[setuporg]

@T25UFO saw that crop in the M10M images thread and it's amazing.  I don't have the MM1, "only" the last two MMs, and my M10M shots with high contrast where only the lights are seen out of camera, upon hitting "Auto" in LR come alive, as if by magic.

[chasdfg]

I never had an M9M to compare against but if you're perfectly fine with a digital M which only shoots B&W, especially so given you have colour M's, then the M10M is a safe purchase because on future proofing:

- will still remain as the highest resolving M (in terms of details rather than pure megapixels) even if the M10R or high res M comes out this year or next (if that is 40-47mp, the M10M matches 50-60mp equivalent colour sensors)

- on top of this, compared to the M10R or high res M, it is likely to have better high iso performance and "dynamic range" than the equivalent colour sensor, going by the M9 vs M9M & M240 vs M246 (about 2 stops, as you would know)

- has the slim form factor, iso dial and quiet shutter that I can't see Leica improving on very much more (as well as the updated M10 onward menus and the touch screen which I have found to like more than I thought I would)

- it's recently released, not going to be replaced for another 4 to 5 years

Even without that future proofing aspect, it's still a beast of a camera...I don't think I could ever outgrow it. But whether it is like the M9M and has the same output or "grit", I'm not sure. The sensor and architecture are completely different and without wading into CMOS vs CCD I don't think it would be the same. It may depend on how one processes his pictures though - the difference may be minimised via post processing.

 

[otto.f]

On 4/24/2020 at 1:25 AM, jplomley said:

Will I be disappointed in the image quality compared to the M9M. Do the M10M files have that same "bite" as the M9M, and "grit" at higher ISO?

You probably will at first because this is what some LUF members reported here. The M240 and the M10M do not have that same bite as the MM1. This is simply because of the the longer HDR. Happens all the time if you climb in Mp’s from M8 to M10, even from M8 to M9. The M8 has the highest microcontrast of them all. When I look back in my archives I’m always surprised of the bite in M8 photo’s. The M10M will ask more postprocessing time from you, I’m sure. If you’re not a crop man and are not interested so much in higher ISO’s than the MM1 gives you, it’s a waste of money. I think the M10M is great for landscape and big big prints. But somebody has still to proof me if big big prints are really worse with an MM1.

If you’re so enthusiastic about your MM1 I would be very careful what you wish for now. It is also related to the subjects you mostly do with your MM1. Ask yourself which camera is best suited for your purposes. If you really want bite, the M10M is not necessarily the better option. Look at the threads for MM1, M240 and M10M. And at the photo above for instance. Personally I do not see the MM1 spark there. Which does not mean it cannot be done, but it takes time. I see the M10M actually more as an experiment to get to know whether more pixels are worth the money and maybe this camera is too recent to say something about that. I do think the M10M has a wider range of possibilities, but is that what you are looking for?

For the same price you might have a good second hand MM1 with the APO Summicron 50, now there’s bite!

Edited April 25, 2020 by otto.f

[MarkP]

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On 4/25/2020 at 5:29 PM, otto.f said:

You probably will at first because this is what some LUF members reported here. The M240 and the M10M do not have that same bite as the MM1. This is simply because of the the longer HDR. Happens all the time if you climb in Mp’s from M8 to M10, even from M8 to M9. The M8 has the highest microcontrast of them all. When I look back in my archives I’m always surprised of the bite in M8 photo’s. The M10M will ask more postprocessing time from you, I’m sure. If you’re not a crop man and are not interested so much in higher ISO’s than the MM1 gives you, it’s a waste of money. I think the M10M is great for landscape and big big prints. But somebody has still to proof me if big big prints are really worse with an MM1.

If you’re so enthusiastic about your MM1 I would be very careful what you wish for now. It is also related to the subjects you mostly do with your MM1. Ask yourself which camera is best suited for your purposes. If you really want bite, the M10M is not necessarily the better option. Look at the threads for MM1, M240 and M10M. And at the photo above for instance. Personally I do not see the MM1 spark there. Which does not mean it cannot be done, but it takes time. I see the M10M actually more as an experiment to get to know whether more pixels are worth the money and maybe this camera is too recent to say something about that. I do think the M10M has a wider range of possibilities, but is that what you are looking for?

For the same price you might have a good second hand MM1 with the APO Summicron 50, now there’s bite!

 

Funny you say that - "the MM1 spark".  

I have always felt that many of my MM1 photos and those I have seen here (despite the limitations of Forum image quality the MM1) the photos just jumped out of the screen.  Perhaps why I've never upgraded mine, unlike worthwhile move from M9 to M240 to M10.  Maybe I'm just used to the look of Monochrom photos but I don't see enough of it, or more of it, with the newer Monochroms.  

The advantages of the M10  including the 40MP sensor are obvious (as well as compatibility with my M10) but I'm just not yet convinced.....yet.....

ps: the 50 APO-Summicron is indeed beautiful on the MM1, but then all lenses perform beautifully on the MM1.

[MarkP]

...,or I'm just being nostalgic about the MM1 and trying to justify NOT spending a shitload of money on leica coolaid...🙄

[jaapv]

On 4/25/2020 at 9:29 AM, otto.f said:

even from M8 to M9. The M8 has the highest microcontrast of them all. When I look back in my archives I’m always surprised of the bite in M8 photo's

I wonder how that may be. The sensor of the M8 and M9 are identical, only the physical size differs.

[otto.f]

55 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I wonder how that may be. The sensor of the M8 and M9 are identical, only the physical size differs.

 Beats me.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Leica-M9-versus-Leica-M8___640_250

Perhaps something with the readout in relation to the Bayer filter

Edited April 26, 2020 by otto.f

[jaapv]

The problem with DXO is that their methodology often leads to inconsistent results. The same sensor in different camera regularly returns different figures, not just with Leica. 

[dkmoore]

4 hours ago, otto.f said:

 Beats me.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Leica-M9-versus-Leica-M8___640_250

Perhaps something with the readout in relation to the Bayer filter

sensor cover glass was thinner on the M8, potentially why the output varied slightly. That is why everyone had to use the IR filters, which was changed for the M9.

[setuporg]

So far I find the M10M really biting out of camera.

[Phil_P]

On 4/25/2020 at 9:29 AM, otto.f said:

For the same price you might have a good second hand MM1 with the APO Summicron 50, now there’s bite!

All the M10M news has certainly fired up a bug in me to try the monochrom. The latest could make sense as I have an M10-P and visoflex but..... have a Leica refurbished MM1 on order which I was notified a body had been sourced and it was just going into 'production' before the shutdown. Have been vacillating since if I have made the right decision for myself  in eschewing the  M10M but have decided to go with the MM1 and at the same time to get the  APO Summicron 50.  With the APO and older glass I have, I have seen too many images from the MM1 that exactly match what I am aspiring to achieve in monochrom.  Very similar  dollar spend so maybe madness, I will see in due course

[elmars]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

I wonder how that may be. The sensor of the M8 and M9 are identical, only the physical size differs.

This is not totally right. The IR-glass on the sensor of the M9 is thicker. I find the photos out of the M8 have a bit more pop or bite too. Maybe this is the reason.

[jaapv]

Yes, thay is right, the IR filter is 0.8 mm against 0.5 mm. I can't imagine that that would make any difference other than a contrast slider needing a slightly higher setting.

[elmars]

I agree. But straight out of the camera the M8 photos have the most pop of all M cameras. 

[T25UFO]

44 minutes ago, Phil_P said:

All the M10M news has certainly fired up a bug in me to try the monochrom. The latest could make sense as I have an M10-P and visoflex but..... have a Leica refurbished MM1 on order which I was notified a body had been sourced and it was just going into 'production' before the shutdown. Have been vacillating since if I have made the right decision for myself  in eschewing the  M10M but have decided to go with the MM1 and at the same time to get the  APO Summicron 50.  With the APO and older glass I have, I have seen too many images from the MM1 that exactly match what I am aspiring to achieve in monochrom.  Very similar  dollar spend so maybe madness, I will see in due course

I had a similar dilemma.  Placed an order for the M10M about a year before it was announced, then read @jonoslack article on refurbished M9's.  There was no news about the release date of the M10M at that time so I ordered a refurb M9M - that was July last year.  It eventually arrived in October - lovely camera, absolutely mint condition, dark red leather, silver body, and only 114 shutter actuations.  The M10M was announced only a few weeks later (!) and I could not afford both.

Very reluctantly decided to sell the M9M, fortunately without financial loss, and the money went towards the M10M.  Both cameras produce wonderful results, although the M10M is better, at least to my eyes, and its ability to recover shadow detail (see my posy #2) is nothing short of amazing.  The form factor has also evolved over 10 years.  I am fortunate in that I already had the 50mm APO purchased back in 2014 and Leica glass doesn't date.

If you buy a 50mm APO together with refurbished M9M now, you won't be disappointed.  If you decide to go for the M10M later, then you should have no trouble selling the M9M with little, or no, financial loss.  The 50mm APO is brilliant on both cameras and will remain so on anything new that Leica make in the future.

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[david strachan]

22 hours ago, jaapv said:

I wonder how that may be. The sensor of the M8 and M9 are identical, only the physical size differs.

If the sensors are identical, i wonder why non of the M8's have suffered from sensor corrosion like so many M9's.

...

[jaapv]

Because it is  not sensor corrosion but IR filter corrosion. And that, as noted above, is slightly different.