Filters on the Monochroms

[setuporg]

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I had a question about the general use of filters, then found it was asked in the initial M10M announcement which effectively became a filter thread.  Here's the starting link:

 

I had a 5x red from B+W and also got the green, orange and yellow by Leica, all E39 for the APO Summicron 50.  Red and green are dark enough to work great as ND replacements as well. 

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[a.noctilux]

Hello Setuporg, just curious, as Monochrom + colored filters learner.

Do you put the two filters red and green one behind the other ?

[setuporg]

Nooooo!  I put either red or green.  I'm a learner as well.  I got the idea of the green filter from Ken Rockwell, of all places.  And it really works well on the trees which often occupy my frames.  Red makes the sky dramatic.  I still need to get a feeling for the specific use cases for orange and yellow.

[steveBK]

I've mostly been using orange filter myself.

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, steveBK said:

I've mostly been using orange filter myself.

What's the key differences between red and orange in practice?

[bags27]

I can well understand your desire to experience fully all the possibilities of this camera.

But it seems like a lot of complications for a camera that is simultaneously reductively simple and yet, because of its power, quite challenging to control fully. Were I fortunate enough to own one, I'd first want to take several thousand captures, to get to know the camera, maybe with one or two lenses and maybe a single filter. Then, when I feel I've understood that, I'd add a lens or filter slowly.

The strength of this camera is in its increased high ISO and dynamic range, and I'd want to understand how they work best in various scenarios. Adding lots of filters from the beginning might create too many variables, at least for me. And some of the effects of those filters could just be added in post- instead--after you've studied the images.

Edited April 23, 2020 by bags27

[a.noctilux]

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With Monochrom Leica M, the good/bad thing can be learned a lot in the field, when taking the frames.

Filters in Monochrom (with time that I've learned) may give good surprises in final result,

I keep on experimenting and with liveview/EVF Monochrom the good/bad thing can be "seen" before taking the pic.

Here, I had on the lens a yellow filter and the "white" pole comes with so nice structure in the "whites", and some differenciation in hues of the 3 figure's

backgrounds

 

 

 

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Monochrom,35 Summarit-M, yellow filter

 

 

For the greens ...

 

 

M246, Elmar 4/90 LTM, green (A36 Gr) filter

Jardin des Plantes Montpellier,

2019 May

[a.noctilux]

Another green filter use, here in this link, very nice to lighten up the "greens" of vegetation

otherwise less contrast with the background, if no green filter

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by a.noctilux

[giannis]

On 4/23/2020 at 10:17 PM, setuporg said:

What's the key differences between red and orange in practice?

The orange is a "lighter" version of red in term of the effects it gives. A bit less dramatic sky, a bit less ghostly skintones, a bit lower filter factor.

[ru2far2c]

On 4/23/2020 at 3:17 PM, setuporg said:

What's the key differences between red and orange in practice?

May these two links will help you with filter factor and effects of RGB color in monochrome. Red has a filter factor of 3 stops and green has a factor of 2 2/3 stops

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/colour-filters/?___store=ilford_brochure&___from_store=ilford_brochure

https://hoyafilterusa.com/pages/how-black-white-filters-work

[davidmknoble]

On 4/23/2020 at 4:17 PM, setuporg said:

What's the key differences between red and orange in practice?

@setuporg, I've found the biggest difference between red and orange filters on the digital monochrom's is focus.  The red is difficult to focus with the rangefinder using any narrow depth of field, whereas the orange I can typically get using the rangefinder.  The red light just focuses differently enough, depending on the lens, that it can miss.  Film was thick enough that you could more easily get at least part of the negative in focus.  I use red filters some, but typically with the EVF.

You can still modify the digital neg with the orange filter and probably get close to the red effect....

[LeicaS2]

I keep a yellow filter on mine.

Before I bought the M10M I experimented with noticing what color filters I used if any in SiverEfxPro2. They have the ability to add filtration to a color shot that one is converting to B&W from color. Frankly if I had found I used several different filters, I might have not bought the mono.  I found that I could get interesting clouds without using a red filter. I found I very rarely used a green filter. But I often used a yellow filter, especially on portraits. So I just keep it on, and it doesn't darken the focusing patch in an objectionable way that a red filter would. BTW, I couldn't do this "playing with filters" in LR as their color sliders will not act as filters but the opposite. Want to darken the blue sky? reduce blue, don't add red as a red filter would. Yes if you know your opposite colors you can simulate a filter.

My point is you can experiment using software which filters you might really want to use. I think you could download a trial of SilverEfxPro2 to use for the experiment. It's how I chose yellow.

 

I have attached their color filter panel which shows you just click on the filter you want, and adjust hue and strength as you wish. Again, this only works on color files, It will not have any effect after the fact with a mono image. 

 

 

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[setuporg]

19 hours ago, LeicaS2 said:

But I often used a yellow filter, especially on portraits. So I just keep it on, and it doesn't darken the focusing patch in an objectionable way that a red filter would.

I'm bot following -- the RF OVF/focusing patch is not affected by the filter, is it?

That was my next question, yellow vs orange...:)

[peterm1_Leica]

On 4/24/2020 at 3:54 AM, setuporg said:

Nooooo!  I put either red or green.  I'm a learner as well.  I got the idea of the green filter from Ken Rockwell, of all places.  And it really works well on the trees which often occupy my frames.  Red makes the sky dramatic.  I still need to get a feeling for the specific use cases for orange and yellow.

An "apple green" filter often works well for skin tones if you can find one. Apple green is a pale green and it gives a very nice "healthy" mild suntan effect to European / Caucasian skin tones.

When I used to shoot film mainly in black and white I accumulated quite a selection of filters in various sizes for various lenses. And in various densities and color tones. Yellow is of course the standard for color separation in black and white as it provides some effect on most general scenery images providing a bit of extra contrast without over doing it. Orange is also good in a similar way but provides slightly more dramatic effects and as you say, red provides  really very dramatic effects by dramatically darkening blues (skies and oceans) and greens (foliage).

But the downside can be that orange and red (and to a lesser effect yellow) makes Caucasian skin tones even more pale which may  not be what you want in your image. Although having said this sometimes this can be effective if shot against a dark background. Never the less yellow/orange and occasionally red  are good for general scenery if you want to lift the effect beyond the ordinary. For those who are not familiar with the theory, look up "color wheel" on Google. A red or orange filter lightens reddish / orange colors and darkens blues and green (because it literally filters those colors out and they do not make it through the filter to the sensor). And visa versa. A yellow filter does something similar but much more modestly. A blue filter can also be used in some situations but it darkens skin tones very dramatically and often brings out unsightly blemishes on the skin which are not otherwise visible. A pale / apple green seems better in that regard. 

All of these filters also reduce overall light hitting the sensor. Thank God for TTL metering as in the olden days when hand metering was the thing, it was necessary to remember to boost exposure by the requisite amount for the filter being used. Even this could be a bit hit and miss - for example a red filter darkens blue, while lightening (comparatively) anything red. So if you had something red and something blue in the same image  the question would be how dark do you want your blues and how bright the red in the final image? 

For me right now, as I do not have a Monochrom and prefer shooting in RAW (which I know Monochrom does  - but my M8 does not) , I simply shoot in  DNG and convert to black and white in post, applying whatever filter I and effect I desire at that stage. Though I have been tempted to get a Monochrom I like shooting in color as well - in fact a high percent of my images are in color at this time  so unless I hit the national lottery - that thought remains on my wish list for another day. I have tried shooting the M8 in JPG / black and white, but simply do not like the limitations of JPG files. DNGs have so much more latitude. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by peterm1_Leica

[LeicaS2]

Setuporg,

someone else had mentioned dark filters like red darken the image enough that the EVF was harder to view. My brain made an error and it made me think OVF by mistake. Sorry. That’s one of the pluses of a rangefinder, the filter doesn’t affect the optical view.

the difference between yellow and orange isn’t much but is much darker. Again, use last color shots and digitally apply various filtration and see what you like in a digital conversion to B&W.

[davidmknoble]

On 4/30/2020 at 6:22 PM, LeicaS2 said:

someone else had mentioned dark filters like red darken the image enough that the EVF was harder to view. My brain made an error and it made me think OVF by mistake. Sorry. That’s one of the pluses of a rangefinder, the filter doesn’t affect the optical view

That is correct, but the red filter shifts the focus point such that the rangefinder is not always correct in terms of focus.  Depends on the filter, f/stop and the lens...

[dkmoore]

1 hour ago, davidmknoble said:

That is correct, but the red filter shifts the focus point such that the rangefinder is not always correct in terms of focus.  Depends on the filter, f/stop and the lens...

No, it is not. The view through the EVF with a red filter is perfectly fine. The information is not accurate as provided by Leica S2.

Your point is accurate, in that a red filter does cause focus shift. But, that is not at all what was being presented by S2.

Edited May 2, 2020 by dkmoore

[ru2far2c]

Just curious:

How many monochrome owners keep some one type of B&W filter on your lens? Like Yellow, Orange, Green etc.{ Not talking about UV.) Or do you apply filter effects in post in say SEP, LR or C1.

I would think in camera would be better than in post.

Saw interview recently (sorry can't remember his name and don't think he is or was a Leica ambassador either) about a photographer that shoots monochrome most of the time and he mentioned that he keeps a yellow filter on most of the time.

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[davidmknoble]

21 hours ago, dkmoore said:

No, it is not. The view through the EVF with a red filter is perfectly fine. The information is not accurate as provided by Leica S2.

Your point is accurate, in that a red filter does cause focus shift. But, that is not at all what was being presented by S2.

I was referring to your comment that the filter doesn’t affect the optical view.  I may have misunderstood S2, but I thought they meant the OVF rangefinder would focus properly with dark color filters.  Sorry if I misunderstood....

Edited May 3, 2020 by davidmknoble

[dkmoore]

Just now, davidmknoble said:

I was referring to your comment that the filter doesn’t affect the optical view.  I may have misunderstood you, but I thought you meant the OVF rangefinder would focus properly with dark color filters.  Sorry if I misunderstood....

No worries! My comment was about another post anyhow and I should have quoted that one rather than yours. Hope everyone is having a nice (corona free) weekend.