Fallancer Posted January 2, 2020 Share #1 Posted January 2, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) Please help to diagnose those strange stains, shutter oil leaking? A new purchased M10-P, production batch 2019.8. When I observed the issue, the shutter count probably less than 200. I can see huge black spots in the picture (in LR, increase exposure and contrast) when shooting in low light environment, with ISO 8000, f1.4 and 1/45s, with 35mm lens and 50 lens. Interesting thing if I took picture in the good day light with low ISO and appropriate shutter speed, I couldn't see those black spots. The issue doesn't seems to exist when I looked for a earlier photo taken around shutter count no. 23, in a similar dark environment. Which leads me to think those are kind of translucent stains. The attached photos are not cropped, one is taken at park with 35mm, another is taken with 50mm at home to reproduce the stains. You can see how big the stains are. I tried to use blower and it looks like make the stains faded but not complete disappear. Haven't tried to wet clean yet. Do you think those are oil leaking stains, as I don't expect dusts could be such big... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304954-new-m10-p-mysterious-stains/?do=findComment&comment=3883379'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 2, 2020 Posted January 2, 2020 Hi Fallancer, Take a look here New M10-P Mysterious Stains. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted January 2, 2020 Share #2 Posted January 2, 2020 I would start off with a wet clean using Smear Away or Eclipse, or if you are not very experienced in sensor cleaning use a professional sensor cleaning service. Leica stores provide such a service.Should the spots persist, send the camera in. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallancer Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted January 2, 2020 Thanks. I would send in the camera, as it is new within 30days. I was afraid if it is the oil splash then it will occur again, and where the stains come from... Have anyone seen this in a brand new mirrorless system? I was a DSLR user and new to rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted January 2, 2020 Share #4 Posted January 2, 2020 Maybe in your analysis of the problem you can do something else: Go into the menu section "sensor cleaning". Choose the analysing option and follow the instructions on the screen. Try to photograph a white sheet of paper (A4 will do). What strikes me is the even distribution across the whole sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 2, 2020 Share #5 Posted January 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Fallancer said: Have anyone seen this in a brand new mirrorless system? I was a DSLR user and new to rangefinder. Most (all?) of the other mirrorless systems (and even most SLRs these days) have automatic sensor cleaning. Turn on or off a Canon xxD and you get an animated message/symbol on the rear screen for a few seconds reading: *Sensor cl*eaning* The sensor gets shaken ultrasonically to toss off any dust or other stuff, often by the same motors that move the sensor for in-camera stabilization (if a feature). The whole interchangeable-lens, electronic viewing mirrorless camera "movement" depended on this technology being developed by Olympus/Panasonic for Micro-4/3rds, since the shutter was going to be open and the sensor uncovered so much of the time for focusing and framing. Back when the "mirrorless concept" was being proposed a dozen years ago, the big question was "If your sensor is bare-naked most of the time - what about DUST!!?" Leica in their precisionist wisdom prefer to have the sensor locked securely in place and not free to wiggle or vibrate - plus the Leica Ms only uncover the sensor for exposure (unless one uses the totally optional live-view or EVF). So they leave out the automated cleaning. No room for it anyway. My experience with M8/9/10s is that they collect more dust when factory-fresh than they do later on. If the shutter is throwing lubricant (never happened to me personally), eventually any excess lubricant is all gone. End of spatters. And it appears that there is a protective coating on the sensor glass that is "stickier" and more prone to collect dust when factory-fresh, and after a couple of wet-cleanings, loses that stickiness and collects dust far less often. Usually I would have to clean my new sensors weekly for 3 weeks, and after that, only monthly or longer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallancer Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share #6 Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) The issue is I couldn't see those stains with a good light environment with low ISO, f8 aperture and appropriate shutter speed in a white paper. I can only reproduce this in a low light environment, the RAW file is way under exposured (those dots are all in black area if not adjust in the LR), and then use LR to increase exposure and contract to see those big stains...my assumption is those dots are not recording signals ... And those stains are way too big...Those are the two original photos. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 2, 2020 by Fallancer Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304954-new-m10-p-mysterious-stains/?do=findComment&comment=3883419'>More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted January 2, 2020 Share #7 Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Did you do the test as provided in the camera menu? You should then apply aperture 16 or 22. Edited January 2, 2020 by M10 for me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallancer Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share #8 Posted January 2, 2020 Just now, M10 for me said: Did you do the test as provided in the camera menu? yes, the built-in test shows a complete clean and white sensor... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted January 2, 2020 Share #9 Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) Then there is nothing to clean either. Strange. After all when I look at your photographs above the "stains" sit on the same spots. Edited January 2, 2020 by M10 for me Added second sentence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallancer Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share #10 Posted January 2, 2020 One if taken with 35mm, another is taken with 50mm to eliminate the stains on the lens. And if look at this one, the black dot happened to be cut half by the white fence. all others which are in complete black area are all in round shape... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304954-new-m10-p-mysterious-stains/?do=findComment&comment=3883431'>More sharing options...
mmx_2 Posted January 2, 2020 Share #11 Posted January 2, 2020 Send an email (and pictures) to Leica CS, if in camera sensor cleaning gives clean sensor and you get stains on your pictures, you definitely have a problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 2, 2020 Share #12 Posted January 2, 2020 In the four hours between the first post and the OP's last post he could have done a wet clean. It could be dust, it could be oil (but this is much rarer with the M10), or somebody could have sneezed on it, but the camera allows you to clean the sensor, so............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted January 2, 2020 Share #13 Posted January 2, 2020 5 hours ago, Fallancer said: I would send in the camera, as it is new within 30days. send it in with the lens and these photos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 2, 2020 Share #14 Posted January 2, 2020 3 hours ago, adan said: Most (all?) of the other mirrorless systems (and even most SLRs these days) have automatic sensor cleaning. Turn on or off a Canon xxD and you get an animated message/symbol on the rear screen for a few seconds reading: *Sensor cl*eaning* The sensor gets shaken ultrasonically to toss off any dust or other stuff, often by the same motors that move the sensor for in-camera stabilization (if a feature). The whole interchangeable-lens, electronic viewing mirrorless camera "movement" depended on this technology being developed by Olympus/Panasonic for Micro-4/3rds, since the shutter was going to be open and the sensor uncovered so much of the time for focusing and framing. Back when the "mirrorless concept" was being proposed a dozen years ago, the big question was "If your sensor is bare-naked most of the time - what about DUST!!?" Leica in their precisionist wisdom prefer to have the sensor locked securely in place and not free to wiggle or vibrate - plus the Leica Ms only uncover the sensor for exposure (unless one uses the totally optional live-view or EVF). So they leave out the automated cleaning. No room for it anyway. My experience with M8/9/10s is that they collect more dust when factory-fresh than they do later on. If the shutter is throwing lubricant (never happened to me personally), eventually any excess lubricant is all gone. End of spatters. And it appears that there is a protective coating on the sensor glass that is "stickier" and more prone to collect dust when factory-fresh, and after a couple of wet-cleanings, loses that stickiness and collects dust far less often. Usually I would have to clean my new sensors weekly for 3 weeks, and after that, only monthly or longer. If these are oil spots, an ultrasonic dust removal system wouldn't shift them All in all, I think that I have never seen anything like it. The identical size, perfect circles and even distribution are striking, the half-spot in post #10 is just weird. As I said, giove the sensor a quick wipe, just in case it is dust or oil and if that does not solve it, send the camera in or, given its age, ask for a replacement. I can think of no reason to send the lens with it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted January 2, 2020 Share #15 Posted January 2, 2020 vor 4 Stunden schrieb 250swb: In the four hours between the first post and the OP's last post he could have done a wet clean. It could be dust, it could be oil (but this is much rarer with the M10), or somebody could have sneezed on it, but the camera allows you to clean the sensor, so............ Before you can start to clean your sensor you have to know exactly how to proceed and you need the respective equipment. In post 2 such equipment is mentioned. I would not advise to just do something. You can do more harm than good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 2, 2020 Share #16 Posted January 2, 2020 I see no reason to accept a so-called "new" camera with stains like that. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreasG Posted January 2, 2020 Share #17 Posted January 2, 2020 If the camera was mine, at first I opened the shutter into the sensor cleaning position, took a magnifying glass and checked visually for spots/dirt on the sensor. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 2, 2020 Share #18 Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, M10 for me said: Before you can start to clean your sensor you have to know exactly how to proceed and you need the respective equipment. In post 2 such equipment is mentioned. I would not advise to just do something. You can do more harm than good. The OP said in his opening post that he hadn't tried a wet clean 'yet', so presumably knows how to proceed, especially as a past DSLR user. A wet clean may be more than is needed if it is simply dust, but it does no damage so little is lost in doing a wet clean. But with any of the conventional cleaning methods none can "do more harm than good" even if you smear any grease around even further by using a sticky pad, you then simply default to the wet clean that you probably should have done in the first place. Yes, there are spots on the sensor, no it shouldn't happen with a new camera (although we don't know it's full history), and it can be taken back to the dealer, but dithering and hand wringing just inflates the uncertainty around the original question. A significant part of understanding if there is a serious problem that does require the dealer can be eliminated in one fell swoop. Edited January 2, 2020 by 250swb Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted January 2, 2020 Share #19 Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) This is weird - as jaapv said, I have never seen anything like it either. My guess is either your sensor needs a wet cleaning, or your sensor is defective. If you clean your sensor and these marks/stains persist, try a second cleaning. If they are still present after that, return the camera to your Leica dealer and ask for a replacement. Since the camera is less than 30 days old since you purchased it, I would think your dealer could give you a replacement and send this one in to Leica Wetzlar to have it made right. Sensor cleaning is not brain surgery - there's no need to pay a camera store $50 or more to do it. For $61.50 USD, you can get everything you need to do it yourself multiple times and save yourself money and inconvenience in the long run. See post #8 in this thread: Best of luck - let us know how things turn out. And welcome to the forum! Edited January 2, 2020 by Herr Barnack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted January 2, 2020 Share #20 Posted January 2, 2020 Queer is that when you run the internal test procedure the sensor shows up as entirely clean. Fallancer did that test. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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