BJohn Posted January 8, 2020 Share #41 Posted January 8, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 5 hours ago, calvinzhao said: Thank you very much!! I think it is cmos fault. I will mail the m10p to Leica. Really appreciate for your reply. I am not 100% sure whether this is a pure sensor fault in terms of manufacturing or of those issues can happen on every sensor with high iso values due to some physics and need to be fixed afterwards via firmware. Nonetheless you cannot fix it on your own as it is not a cleaning issue at all. Sadly you have to consult your distributor or send it directly to Leica Camera AG in Wetzlar to get a replacement. Good luck with that, should work with ease! The only disappointment you may have is the fact that your Leica M is gone for some time :(! Fingers crossed that it does not take too much time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 Hi BJohn, Take a look here New M10-P Mysterious Stains. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Fallancer Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share #42 Posted January 9, 2020 So I am not alone with this mysterious black spots... My camera is still on the way to the retailer, once I get a replacement I would first try with the same camera setting to test. I am not sure if manufacturing batch matters, mine is dated 2019.8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickgillberg Posted January 9, 2020 Share #43 Posted January 9, 2020 I took some picture today with my M10P, 50 Summilux and a nd filter, f/16 and 12 seconds at iso 100. There are some simmular spots like the OP but not so many and smaller. Tried the sensor test when I got home and it came out totally clean. Strange, please tell what response you get from Leica. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304954-new-m10-p-mysterious-stains/?do=findComment&comment=3888033'>More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 10, 2020 Share #44 Posted January 10, 2020 20 hours ago, dickgillberg said: I took some picture today with my M10P, 50 Summilux and a nd filter, f/16 and 12 seconds at iso 100. There are some simmular spots like the OP but not so many and smaller. Tried the sensor test when I got home and it came out totally clean. Strange, please tell what response you get from Leica. They aren't similar spots because they appear in the mid-tone areas, it is dust, clone it out in Photoshop. The Leica 'sensor test' is almost useless, go outside, point your camera at the sky, stop the lens down to the smallest f/stop and focus on infinity, take a picture. Go back inside and when you open the photo stress test it by increasing contrast beyond normal limits, you will see any dust that is on the sensor as black or grey spots, but just make sure you haven't photographed a bird. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted January 14, 2020 Share #45 Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) I'm really not sure why people are frightened of cleaning a sensor. It's a normal part of owning a digital camera and if you do it sensibly is a zero risk activity. I've used Visible Dust / Arctic Butterfly dry and wet cleaning products since my first digital camera (Canon 20D) and then through all the iterations of the M. I have clean sensors and no problems Deliberately overexposing or pushing dramatically in post will often show up small sensor stains that have no impact on normally exposed images. Most of the examples shown here are extremely over exposed It's really worth examing the sensor with a loupe (https://visibledust.com/products/quasar-r-5x-sensor-loupe-magnifier-with-dark-adaptation-technology/ This will show up any issues. I'd do all of these before getting back to Leica and claiming that the camera was faulty. Good luck... Edited January 14, 2020 by chris_tribble 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenhune Posted January 20, 2020 Share #46 Posted January 20, 2020 I have same kind of issues with my silver Leica M10-P. Stains appears if I increase exposure (in Lightroom or Affinity) to dim .DNG's which are captured with high ISO (3200 - 6400). I sent my camera to Leica service so they can check it - it was manufactured on July 2019 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickgillberg Posted January 22, 2020 Share #47 Posted January 22, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 1/14/2020 at 7:36 PM, chris_tribble said: I'm really not sure why people are frightened of cleaning a sensor. It's a normal part of owning a digital camera and if you do it sensibly is a zero risk activity. I've used Visible Dust / Arctic Butterfly dry and wet cleaning products since my first digital camera (Canon 20D) and then through all the iterations of the M. I have clean sensors and no problems Deliberately overexposing or pushing dramatically in post will often show up small sensor stains that have no impact on normally exposed images. Most of the examples shown here are extremely over exposed It's really worth examing the sensor with a loupe (https://visibledust.com/products/quasar-r-5x-sensor-loupe-magnifier-with-dark-adaptation-technology/ This will show up any issues. I'd do all of these before getting back to Leica and claiming that the camera was faulty. Good luck... It's kind of strange, for me, I work as a photographer since 1990. I had my first digital camera a Canon D30 about year 2000. I've never cleaned a digital camera. I tried once and messed up totally. It was a Canon 5D2 and I used an Arctic butterfly that smeared my sensor just before an important job, had to rush to my canon repair facility to get help. Since then I've never touched a sensor. And that's the only time I needed it. My digital cameras over the year certainly needed some dust removing but not much. I've had about 20 different Canon cameras since then and M8, M9, M, and now M10P and never cleaned none of them. Now my M10P is just a couple of month old and already show so much dust, hmm. Must have been there from the beginning. But as you say I don't know really what I'm afraid of, you're doing it all the time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaR10 Posted January 22, 2020 Share #48 Posted January 22, 2020 Dickgillberg, When I first got into digital cameras, I was in the same spot you were too. This was back in the early 2000s when I owned a Canon as well. I took the camera to a dealer in town, he looked at it with his magnifier visor and asked if someone had sneezed on the sensor...funny now...not back then. It took him about 20 minutes to clean that sensor, but he was kind enough to teach me how to clean my own camera sensor. It is a simple process. You can watch You Tube videos on how to clean the sensor or simply go to your local camera store and ask them to teach you how to clean the sensor. With a little practice, you will master the process. Hope this helps. r/ Mark 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onasj Posted January 22, 2020 Share #49 Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) The M10(P)'s sensor dust self-diagnosis is MUCH less sensitive than is needed to ensure there is no visible dust in photos. In other words, the self-diagnosis can read clean but you see lots of dust spots in your photos. I use a blower first (filtered), then if many blower passes (~10-20) don't do the trick, I use an eyelead gel stick (sticky blob on a stick). And only if both of those fail do I wet clean (which usually takes me an hour to get it just right). A bright headlamp with eye magnifiers will help. Edited January 22, 2020 by onasj Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallancer Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share #50 Posted January 23, 2020 Well, I received the replacement brand new M10P today, dated Aug.2019 I got my Leica 35/F1.4 and Voig 50/1.5 ready in hand. I took the pictures with the same settings and processed in LR... The familiar stains come back like an old friend. I took the shot against a white wall with F11 and good exposure, I don't see those. This time I got "visible dust sensor loupe" and VSGO swab kits in hands. I firstly inspect with loupe, super clean. 2nd I use blower to blow couple of times... Then I used swab to wet clean multiple times ( each time I hooked the lens and check). Finally I gave up and all those strange stains remains. So what is going on Leica??? Or that is just the limitation of this CMOS sensor.... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304954-new-m10-p-mysterious-stains/?do=findComment&comment=3897489'>More sharing options...
Fallancer Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share #51 Posted January 23, 2020 I did contact Leica support and they asked me to ship the camera to them but that is a long gone. I could send the camera back to the dealer for a refund, I would not prefer for a replacement this time. Please let me know if any other test I can perform before I send this camera back again. Thanks all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickgillberg Posted January 23, 2020 Share #52 Posted January 23, 2020 Does it show in your normal pictures? My specks shows just when I use long exposures and small apertures. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted January 23, 2020 Share #53 Posted January 23, 2020 I have had digital Leica's since 2011 and never felt a need to process files like you have. Perhaps if we did we would all have this "problem". For normal processing to produce images that most of us want to see they seem fine. You may be at the end of the road. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallancer Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share #54 Posted January 23, 2020 13 hours ago, dickgillberg said: Does it show in your normal pictures? My specks shows just when I use long exposures and small apertures. Your specks look more like dust, tiny and only show in small aperture. My specks show on either small or big aperture in low light environment, and it is HUGE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 24, 2020 Share #55 Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) Bottom line. I was able to reveal spots/blobs like Fallancer's, from an original underexposure about like his. With my original 3-year-old M10. See right side of adjusted (bluish) image. The picture was exposed at 1/1000 and f/16 (manually) - the meter called for 1/12 at f/16 (both at ISO set to 10000) Do you know what it took? An 6.5-stop underexposure. That is, trying to get an effective ISO of 500000 (from an actual ISO setting of 10000, plus post-processing corrections of 6.5 stops). Let's all go to our M10 manuals. Can anyone find a page anywhere that says the M10 can be used at, or pushed to, ISO 500 thousand? Fallancer, I'm sorry, but if you screw up the exposure by 6.5 stops, (especially from an already-high ISO) that is not Leica's responsibility, and you should count yourself lucky they already gave you one new camera. Learn to use the light meter correctly, and give the sensor enough light. Do not try to rescue the image in post-processing beyond a total ISO of 50000 (i.e. if you set 6400 on the camera, no more than 4 additional stops in LR or Photoshop). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! BTW, here is the same scene - correctly metered and exposed for ISO 10000. Edited January 24, 2020 by adan 4 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! BTW, here is the same scene - correctly metered and exposed for ISO 10000. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304954-new-m10-p-mysterious-stains/?do=findComment&comment=3898194'>More sharing options...
BJohn Posted January 24, 2020 Share #56 Posted January 24, 2020 3 hours ago, adan said: ... Do not try to rescue the image in post-processing beyond a total ISO of 50000 (i.e. if you set 6400 on the camera, no more than 4 additional stops in LR or Photoshop). Wow thanks for your very detailed explanation! I think everybody should calm down. Nonetheless, my M10 showed these spots on lower ISO values sometimes without pushing them too hard in post. That was btw the case during which I identified these sports at first. I sent the camera in, they confirmed the issue, I got a new model back. This new model still shows "sometimes" those spots if I push too hard in the post. At least in my case this is now acceptable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallancer Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share #57 Posted January 24, 2020 Thanks all. And I think that is the case or the natural spec of this Leica CMOS. As I am a Nikon guy and I couldn’t reproduce this with my never-cleaned D750 CMOS... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted January 24, 2020 Share #58 Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Fallancer said: Thanks all. And I think that is the case or the natural spec of this Leica CMOS. As I am a Nikon guy and I couldn’t reproduce this with my never-cleaned D750 CMOS... The M10 sensor (as the other Leica CMOS sensors) has micro-lenses designed to cope with Leica M lenses , as well as no antialiasing filter . So compare sensible output (ie a properly exposed image that both cameras were designed to produce). If you are happy with Nikon, stick with the brand. Edited January 24, 2020 by pedaes 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted January 24, 2020 Share #59 Posted January 24, 2020 28 minutes ago, pedaes said: The M10 sensor (as the other Leica CMOS sensors) has micro-lenses designed to cope with Leica M lenses , as well as no antialiasing filter . So compare sensible output (ie a properly exposed image that both cameras were designed to produce). If you are happy with Nikon, stick with the brand. The voice of reason. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick90 Posted January 27, 2020 Share #60 Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) Hi, New on the forum and new Leica user. I have/had quite a few DSLR and still using a D850. End of December I sold my XT-3 for a brand new M10P with a 35mm Summicron and same stains happen on the sensor, and quite a lot ! Contacted my dealer who agreed for exchange but when I brought the Leica he told me that no M10P black was available in Leica Germany nor in France !! So he sent the body back to Germany for repair and now : ... I wait. Pretty upset and disappointed by this very high priced purchase, don’t talk to me about the « deutsch qualitad » Edited January 27, 2020 by Patrick90 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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