"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[99p]

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24 minutes ago, ron777 said:

 

My original question was, what could Leica provide in the SL2 that isn't already available on other manufacturer's exiting cameras.  I guess the answer is, nothing.

I guess there lies the problem. Maybe some companies are content in being followers rather than leaders.

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[mmradman]

2 minutes ago, 99p said:

I guess there lies the problem. Maybe some companies are content in being followers rather than leaders.

The real skill is to make money from being follower, only Leica can guess based on SL and L lens sales so far plus few overpriced accessories.

SL2 being re-badged S1R was no brainier, at least for me.  Providing Leica can adopt some of more "exotic" features like IBIS and ON/OFF LENR they may have a winner.  Also being able to provide option to save compressed lossless RAW files would be big plus in my book, last camera that could that was M240/246.

[giampo]

3 hours ago, ron777 said:

Out of pure curiosity, what do you envision the SL2 could provide that isn't already available on other cameras, besides the red dot?

Very very simple answer, at least for me: leica has in camera hardware and software that make leica lenses work better. (Not only M lenses, but SL lenses too)

And for me that makes all the difference. For me...

I always thought that leica users buy leica, mainly for the lenses, and not for the red dot 🙂  , so IMHO it doesn't make really sense spend a ton of money on lenses and then pair them on a cameras that don't work at best whit them.

Edited September 16, 2019 by giampo

[mgrayson3]

1 hour ago, giampo said:

Very very simple answer, at least for me: leica has in camera hardware and software that make leica lenses work better. (Not only M lenses, but SL lenses too)

And for me that makes all the difference. For me...

I always thought that leica users buy leica, mainly for the lenses, and not for the red dot 🙂  , so IMHO it doesn't make really sense spend a ton of money on lenses and then pair them on a cameras that don't work at best whit them.

I owned a Leica M2 with 35 Cron for years before using it (long story involving a friend who needed cash). I knew it had market value, but assumed the mystique was just that. One day, out of curiosity, I tried a roll of film. You should have seen me jumping up and down and swearing when I found out that a) Leica users were right and b) this was going to cost me a lot of money. It did....

[johnbuckley]

God, it will be nice when the SL2 is released so we can talk about the actual bloody camera, and not how many photons can dance on the head of a pin...

[ron777]

I agree, it is becoming tiresome.

[Donzo98]

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Just now, ron777 said:

I agree, it is becoming tiresome.

At least we have our S1R's to soothe our pain

[thighslapper]

1 minute ago, Donzo98 said:

At least we have our S1R's to soothe our pain

yes ...... and I've just been playing with my new x2 teleconverter for the 70-200 S.

Being able to take images at 1/8 sec handheld at 400mm equivalent does make me ponder on why I would want an SL2 anyway ...... 

[Jeff S]

14 minutes ago, johnbuckley said:

God, it will be nice when the SL2 is released so we can talk about the actual bloody camera, and not how many photons can dance on the head of a pin...

And you were the one, John, who started this discussion based on the rumor that it would be announced on September 24th at the earliest.

Jeff

[ron777]

26 minutes ago, Donzo98 said:

At least we have our S1R's to soothe our pain

True, but I'm not experiencing any pain, since I do not plan on purchasing an SL2.  I cannot imagine, other than the Leica logo and M lens compatibility, what an SL2 could offer beyond what the S1R already provides.  And, as you're already aware, I'd sold all of my M lenses.  And even if Leica has managed to acquire an exotic sensor that offers improved DR and better noise control than the Panasonic sensor, I will not be enticed, since I am happy with the results that I am getting from the S1R.  But from the leaked photos of the new body, assuming that they were not part of a cruel hoax, it appears that there are outward features suggestive of a carry over from the Q2, and it makes sense to assume, from an economy of scale perspective, that the same sensor will probably be employed, perhaps with a tweaked algorithm ... or not.

Edited September 16, 2019 by ron777

[johnbuckley]

I know, I know, Jeff...

 There is a real pattern on this forum to the phenomenon of waiting for Leica to announce a rumored camera. We start to vector in on an actual release. Indications of what might be in store either make us elated or our hopes dashed (usually the latter.) An immense amount of Technical Camera Faux (and some real) Erudition erupts. (I usually tune out when people start using math with symbols I can't find on my keyboard.) A few posters leap into hyper-posting mode. (As you'll remember, I've been on the forum all the way back to the Fly Guy era...) And it's all because we are checking in, oh, three, four times a day to see IF ANYONE KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT THE RELEASE DATE.

And no one actually does. Until they actually do...

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by johnbuckley

[hmathias]

19 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

. What I care about are the capabilities and the results. From noise levels found in the raw images, it seems to explain why some folks have criticized the S1R's CDAF low light capabilities. 

When the leading digital cinema motion picture camera manufacturer ARRI had to make this decision with their industry-leading ALEXA camera, they chose High  Dynamic Range sensors (14 camera stops) over resolution and kept the native chip sensitivity at EI 800. When they wanted to increase resolution, they also made the sensor chip larger and added the ALEXA LF camera to their lineup. 

I trust that Leica will make the same prudent judgements. They never chose big numbers over image quality.

Harry

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, johnbuckley said:

I know, I know, Jeff...

 There is a real pattern on this forum to the phenomenon of waiting for Leica to announce a rumored camera. We start to vector in on an actual release. Indications of what might be in store either make us elated or our hopes dashed (usually the latter.) An immense amount of Technical Camera Faux (and some real) Erudition erupts. (I usually tune out when people start using math with symbols I can't find on my keyboard.) A few posters leap into hyper-posting mode. (As you'll remember, I've been on the forum all the way back to the Fly Guy era...) And it's all because we are checking in, oh, three, four times a day to see IF ANYONE KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT THE RELEASE DATE.

And no one actually does. Until they actually do...

 

Exactly, so you knew what to expect.  And if past is prologue, the entertainment will continue even after the release with different camps weighing in with everything from ‘I told you so’ to ‘I love it’ to ‘I can’t believe they did or didn’t do that’ and everything in between.  Then many of the naysayers will go ahead and buy it and tell everyone how great it is.  See every M release as a roadmap.

Jeff

[Chaemono]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Jeff S:

And if past is prologue, the entertainment will continue even after the release with different camps weighing in with everything from ‘I told you so’ to ‘I love it’ to ‘I can’t believe they did or didn’t do that’ and everything in between.  Then many of the naysayers will go ahead and buy it and tell everyone how great it is.  See every M release as a roadmap.

Jeff

Well put. The sensor’s DR, malleability of the files, and AF are key. IBIS is a given, otherwise it’s DOA anyway. There are alternatives out there and now with Panasonic even those that take SL lenses natively. 

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, hmathias said:

I trust that Leica will make the same prudent judgements. They never chose big numbers over image quality.

Certainly the lens introductions suggest they are just as maniacal about quality as they've ever been.  My concerns stem more from the evolving reality across the industry of how companies can survive as a camera manufacturers and how specifically that will influence the content of the SL2.

I have to disagree slightly though... No doubt the image quality is there, but $12,785.00 for a 75mm manual focus lens is a pretty big number. 😊    

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, ron777 said:

 

My original question was, what could Leica provide in the SL2 that isn't already available on other manufacturer's exiting cameras.  I guess the answer is, nothing.

For me the SL differentiated itself with it's build quality and handling/usability. They could continue to do that but if the *leaks* are true they've thrown that away too. The M button layout doesn't work on a camera with an EVF as well as the current layout does and the current layout works incredibly well.

Leica could improve the grip dramatically. Look at the Z7 and X1D which both have better grips. They can continue their compatibility with M lenses. They can use the S1 EVF but with better optics and magnification. Extremely robust weather sealing (like the original). Leica could forego IBIS and a tilty screen and make a LIGHTER camera.

They could concentrate on getting more lenses out.

Some sensors have more Dr than others. But really, there isn't a poor sensor out there and there are plenty of techniques to blend files for more DR, including the old faithful of actually getting the exposure right in the first place. For some it's all about the sensor or that other chestnut tracking AF. Because we all need to have every frame of our grand kids perfectly sharp.

If Leica release the SL2 with the 2nd best sensor ever made someone will call it shit and present some 100% crops to tell us all. If they get CDAF focusing working like the Sony A9 it'll be crap because the A9II is about to be released. Threads of sequences of a soft running dog will arrive. There will be 900 comments of vitriol and jealousy on DPreview as the Neanderthals with keyboards are let loose on the internet. One guy will try and respond to every comment like he's going to make a difference.....

And all the while the mini MF guys will be laughing at your puny dynamic range and ACTUAL sports shooters will be wondering what all the fuss is about while they keep making money with a D3. But still, there'll be threads from people who don't own a printer about how Leica failed with 47MP when the Sony has 61. Sad. We'll keep comparing the S1 sensor to the S1R because it's not like someone who can afford an SL2 might also be able to but a S1.

The longer this thread goes on the more I just want to pull out my M240 and go take pictures.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

6 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The answer is better DR and more malleable files. I’ll start a thread to compare and post links to the RAW files. The S1R can’t even match the CL so I’m confident. 

If you look at the files at 100% maybe, but if you down sample the S1R files to 24MP or if you print at any size the S1R out performs the CL, every time. It's just another example of pixel peeping not representing real world results.

Gordon

[Jeff S]

12 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

If you look at the files at 100% maybe, but if you down sample the S1R files to 24MP or if you print at any size the S1R out performs the CL, every time. It's just another example of pixel peeping not representing real world results.

Gordon

Hooray for printing.  And for ignoring the noise (pun intended) and drawing one’s own conclusions.

Jeff

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[mmx_2]

On 9/16/2019 at 7:29 PM, johnbuckley said:

God, it will be nice when the SL2 is released so we can talk about the actual bloody camera, and not how many photons can dance on the head of a pin...

42? The answer is always 42 isn’t it?

[johnbuckley]

I think we were going back and forth on whether it was 36, but the belief now is it's 47. Definitely 47.