"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[Chaemono]

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vor 1 Minute schrieb ron777:

An unlikely scenario. Sorry, not funny. 

If you keep insisting, I'll start a separate thread in the L-mount section and flood it with RW2 files. 🤣

[thighslapper]

I'd be very interested to know what Leica's penetration is into the Professional Market ....... apart from the S series I suspect not a lot.

I dip into a lot of landscape facebook forums and youtube channels and it is very clear that the entire camera sector is propped up by enthusiastic amateurs who appear to be the only significant buyers of mid range and semi-pro equipment.

In Leica's case it is the segment of that market with more money .... or less sense than average that is their user base. There may be marketing leverage in calling the SL a 'Pro' camera to attract this group, but genuine professionals, as pointed out here, are a much more mercenary bunch when it comes to camera choice and with a completely different set of needs to the rest of the photographic community.

For the SL to survive Leica will have play the same game as the competitors as the SL has no retro appeal (yet !) or unique selling points in 2019. The SL2 may have some killer property that  leapfrogs other FF systems, but it is hard to see where this is going to come from, otherwise it has to be similar to the S1R/Z7/A7R3 or there will be a lot of disappointed SL users.

 

[thighslapper]

17 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

We all seem to be in a good mood so let’s show something funny. Links to download the RAW files are provided. The fact is, the 47 MPx S1R sensor is not made for recovering Shadow detail, unless one likes lots of color banding.

I'm not sure I would regard this as a startling revelation. (although I've yet to encounter banding and I have pulled similar shadow detail out)

Any sensor with bigger sensor wells will give you better results .... it's simple physics. 

As with the A7R4 it appears that increased resolution has resulted in compromises in other areas. 

It's a matter of choosing what is most important for your particular needs.

Slagging off cameras because of specific 'deficiencies' completely ignores the fact that for many users it is irrelevant for what they want it for. 

I take 'fine art' landscape images (well at least I try to) so some more pixels, more DR and no LENR are the only 3 things I am interested in. Anything else is a bonus. 

[thighslapper]

original image with S1R+90-280 SL

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[thighslapper]

Exposure +5 in LR, shadows +100, highlights -100, whites -100

Banding ????

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Edited September 14, 2019 by thighslapper

[Chaemono]

I use a control camera with the same lens, shot with the exact same settings, under the same conditions, and the files are adjusted to match. The result is that in scenes with extreme Highlights and Shadows, where one needs to expose in order to protect the Highlights, the S1 handles Shadow detail recovery with ease, the S1R shows tons of banding. Links to the RAWs are provided. I’ll do more. 

[ron777]

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59 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

I'm not sure I would regard this as a startling revelation. (although I've yet to encounter banding and I have pulled similar shadow detail out)

Any sensor with bigger sensor wells will give you better results .... it's simple physics. 

As with the A7R4 it appears that increased resolution has resulted in compromises in other areas. 

It's a matter of choosing what is most important for your particular needs.

Slagging off cameras because of specific 'deficiencies' completely ignores the fact that for many users it is irrelevant for what they want it for. 

I take 'fine art' landscape images (well at least I try to) so some more pixels, more DR and no LENR are the only 3 things I am interested in. Anything else is a bonus. 

Well said, agree wholeheartedly.

[nicci78]

5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Let's get the good news about that 47 MPx FSI sensor that is allegedly in the SL2 but hopefully not (I really prey that Leica went with a Sony sensor for the SL2) out of the way first. Because Panasonic folks are smart cookies, ISO 3200 noise of the S1R is acceptable, I'd say. Really clever algorithms clean up the files and, hence, a DxOMark score of 100 for that 47 MPx sensor. 👏 Leica folks don't have the same software capabilities, it seems, and the same sensor gets a DxOMark score of only 96 in the Q2. But this where the good news for that TowerJazz sensor ends (I'm pretty sure from the way it behaves it's from TowerJazz). But because Panasonic folks are even smarter cookies than we think, they went with a BSI Sony sensor (likely the IMX410CQK-C) for the S1. And that 24 MPx sensor beats the pants off the S1R for DR and malleability of files (something really important in high contrast scenes). No wonder that Jono reviewed the S1 (with a Sony sensor) instead of the S1R. And he gave the S1 back and is looking forward to the SL2. Go figure, that son of a gun.

Don’t be too pessimistic. With CL Leica produced the best implementation of Sony’s APS-C 24MP. So there is hope for SL2. 

Q2 problem is overheating. It may reduce the IQ against big and cooler S1R. 

I hope that SL2 will not suffer of that. But being a much bigger body it should be ok.  

 

If Leica let Jono testing the S1 and not the S1R. It is because they are sure that SL2 will be better than both. 

The case of Leica is unique. They can leverage Panasonic best tech. Add their own and licensed others tech. Panasonic has to stick with its own. 

And Leica has another advantage : its partnership with Huawei. Making their combined R&D more efficient and more ambitious. 

[mgrayson3]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

I use a control camera with the same lens, shot with the exact same settings, under the same conditions, and the files are adjusted to match. The result is that in scenes with extreme Highlights and Shadows, where one needs to expose in order to protect the Highlights, the S1 handles Shadow detail recovery with ease, the S1R shows tons of banding. Links to the RAWs are provided. I’ll do more. 

I looked at your RAWs (thank you, BTW). The S1 image, at least with default LR processing, comes in consistently brighter than the S1R image. Deep shadows are 1.5% vs 0.8%. The red glass is 84% vs 79%. I see that the camera settings are identical, so it's just a different calibration of the processors - or the Adobe defaults. One can never tell.

[Fedro]

2 hours ago, thighslapper said:

I'm not sure I would regard this as a startling revelation. (although I've yet to encounter banding and I have pulled similar shadow detail out)

Any sensor with bigger sensor wells will give you better results .... it's simple physics. 

As with the A7R4 it appears that increased resolution has resulted in compromises in other areas. 

It's a matter of choosing what is most important for your particular needs.

Slagging off cameras because of specific 'deficiencies' completely ignores the fact that for many users it is irrelevant for what they want it for. 

I take 'fine art' landscape images (well at least I try to) so some more pixels, more DR and no LENR are the only 3 things I am interested in. Anything else is a bonus. 

+1

on the specific ... better DR and no LENR would be bliss

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb ron777:

Well said, agree wholeheartedly.

This whole argument that the S1R has great DR and its files are very malleable is just reflection of 'confirmation bias' (from Wikipedia: a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively. The effect is stronger for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply-entrenched beliefs) and 'belief perseverance' (from Wikipedia: when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false).

vor einer Stunde schrieb nicci78:

Don’t be too pessimistic. With CL Leica produced the best implementation of Sony’s APS-C 24MP. So there is hope for SL2. 

I went out I shot the S1R + 75 Summicron-SL against the CL + 50 Summicron-SL. I'd say the S1R can't even match the DR and the malleability of the files of that Sony APS-C sensor. Look at the yellow bag. Under certain conditions the S1R shows color banding whereas the S1 and the CL under the same conditions show none. The performance of the S1R sensor reminds me of the M240 sensor scaled up to 47 MPx.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-zZCDLz/

 

This is the starting point:

S1R + 75 Summicron-SL (ISO 100 f/5.6 @1/40 sec.) - link to RW2 file download: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g200291839-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=Y0by5VHRAVuK2xlBHX20-FfV9ijLuQj5-OW58KtpowI=

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CL + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 100 f/4 @1/125 sec.) - link to DNG file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g306750784-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=sfTUFASlb2U7gaMI2unyZlio2v7XJUMHtyQoBzp6F2Q=

Edited September 14, 2019 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

And this is after processing to try to match.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-zZCDLz/

 

S1R + 75 Summicron-SL

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CL + 50 Summicron-SL

[ron777]

I've opened your the raw file in C1 Ver 12 and viewed at up to 100% ... I did not see any banding anywhere in the frame.  Maybe it's time to change your PP software.

Edited September 14, 2019 by ron777

[Chaemono]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb ron777:

I've opened your the raw file in C1 Ver 12 and viewed at up to 100% ... I did not see any banding anywhere in the frame.  Maybe it's time to change your PP software.

I have C1. The S1R files look even worse there. 😂

[ron777]

Your eyes must calibrated to a different standard.

[Donzo98]

11 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

I have C1. The S1R files look even worse there. 😂

I don't see what you're trying to prove...

Are you trying to convince us that the S1 is better than the S1R?? I think those of us that own the S1R are happy with it...

The S1 looks good in your tests for sure... but what I'm seeing from the S1R works for me.

[scott kirkpatrick]

After looking over the last page or two of posts on DR, I went back to my Faroes S1R files to see if I had anything as stressed as Thighslapper's example.  Here's a case which is less extreme.  First the uncorrected shot

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P1011076 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

and then a version with the Capture One headroom highlight and shadow sliders each nearly maxed out (90%):

P1011076 1 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

Nothing terrible happens here.

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

And a bit more DR stress:  This version has several sliders maxed out in COne, but I like it:

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P1011387 1 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

 

[Chaemono]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Donzo98:

I don't see what you're trying to prove...

Show that the DR of the S1 and of the CL is better and that their files are more malleable. 

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Donzo98:

I think those of us that own the S1R are happy with it...

47 MPx are just too many to resist. 

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Donzo98:

The S1 looks good in your tests for sure...

It depends on what one is looking for. 

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Donzo98:

Are you trying to convince us that the S1 is better than the S1R??

I’m trying to inform people about the limitations of that 47 MPx FSI sensor that the 24 MPx BSI sensor of the S1 doesn’t have. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

We all seem to be in a good mood so let’s show something funny. Links to download the RAW files are provided. The fact is, the 47 MPx S1R sensor is not made for recovering Shadow detail, unless one likes lots of color banding.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-zZCDLz/

 

The starting point is this.

S1R + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 3200 f/4 @1/40 sec.)

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S1 + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 3200 f/4 @1/40 sec.)

 

And when one lifts the Shadows by 100 and tries to match Exposure, the following shows.

S1R + 50 Summicron-SL, Exposure +2, Highlights -66, Shadows +100, default LR sharpening - link to RW2 file download: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g12473015-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=2i_h81Fwq6FrKwPzdxGkiWi5jJ_FPhRf3oy1IsH_Azs=

 

S1 + 50 Summicron-SL, Exposure +1.5, Highlights -66, Shadows +100, default LR sharpening - link to RW2 file download: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g411393211-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=HTLkk34XTX0muyA5qEkYLtx8NPpDHiBY--XbH6wZBTo=

 

It might be fun to bitch about the S1R sensor in comparison to a 24MP unit, saying that a Sony sensor is better but actually that’s not true. If we compare like to like as I can, the S1R sensor is essentially as malliable as the Sony 42MP sensor from the A7R3 and only a tiny bit behind the Nikon Z7. The Sony’s exhibit obvious PDAF point banding when pushed hard. The Nikon has the advantage of a really good ISO64 which gives it about a half stop but occasionally it too shows PDAF artifacts when pushed.

If you want to push shadows that far you need bigger pixels, with the current technology. A lower resolution sensor of the same size or a similar pixel density in a larger sensor. This has been demonstrated over and over and over. Even the GFX100 appears to have slightly less DR than the 4 year old GFX50 sensor. Big pixels matter.

These tests feel like someone is comparing a chop stick to a tooth pick, to me.

If you need/want the higher resolution a comparison to a 24MP unit is irrelevant. If you want both high resolution and high DR you get a GFX, 645Z or X1D.

Gordon