To EVF or Rangfinder

[farnz]

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2 hours ago, spersky said:

I wish Leica had an EVF like any other mirrorless camera.  The lack of built in EVF in the Leica M bodies have caused me to move on to another camera brand. 

CL or SL?

Pete.

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2 hours ago, spersky said:

I wish Leica had an EVF like any other mirrorless camera.  The lack of built in EVF in the Leica M bodies have caused me to move on to another camera brand.  I had about 15k burning a hole in my pocket a few months ago to obtain some mirrorless camera gear and I had to move on to another brand.

Maybe the M11 will have one you never know.

It would then become "like any other mirrorless camera".

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, spersky said:

I wish Leica had an EVF like any other mirrorless camera.  The lack of built in EVF in the Leica M bodies have caused me to move on to another camera brand.  I had about 15k burning a hole in my pocket a few months ago to obtain some mirrorless camera gear and I had to move on to another brand.

Maybe the M11 will have one you never know.

The whole USP of the M is that it does not have an EVF, but a (rather superior) OVF. I can understand you moving on if that doesn't suit you. That is the whole point of having choices.

[lct]

3 hours ago, spersky said:

I wish Leica had an EVF like any other mirrorless camera. [...] Maybe the M11 will have one you never know.

The M11 should be a rangefinder normally but Leica has not ruled out what Stefan Daniel called a "second M" with a built-in EVF instead of the rangefinder: https://www.macfilos.com/2018/10/09/2018-10-9-leica-the-l-mount-stabilisation-and-the-rangefinderless-m-camera/

[jaapv]

That might be a good idea, but it would be a bit like an SL shoehorned into an M10. It cannot be a simple engineering exercise.

[mujk]

If Leica made an EVF-only M it would either have to be a "cheap" entry-level model, like the rangefinderless M1 was, or they would need to make new lenses or versions of the current ones that made the EVF M fully functional. This would at least mean adding aperture coupling, so that both focussing and exposure metering would be possible wide open also when the aperture is set to a smaller f-stop, in the same way as SLRs and many mirrorless cameras work in manual mode with their native lenses. At the same time they could of course add autofocus and IS, make zoom lenses and... But I don't think Leica would create yet another lens system with the M mount.

An M with both a rangefinder-coupled OVF and and EVF built in, or a hybrid VF, would of course be a completely different case. But this has already been discussed in previous threads.

[lct]

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2 minutes ago, mujk said:

If Leica made an EVF-only M it would either have to be a "cheap" entry-level model, like the rangefinderless M1 was, or they would need to make new lenses or versions of the current ones that made the EVF M fully functional. This would at least mean adding aperture coupling, so that both focussing and exposure metering would be possible wide open also when the aperture is set to a smaller f-stop, in the same way as SLRs and many mirrorless cameras work in manual mode with their native lenses.

EVFs work fine when focusing stop down so there is need to modify current M lenses IMHO, at least those designed or adapted for digital Ms. Focusing at full aperture is a sure way to miss focus when lenses suffer from focus shift BTW. 

[jaapv]

Not if you use an EVF. The viewfinder will show you exact focus at all apertures, perfect for lenses that exhibit  focus shift.
When using the OVF, lenses that shift focus are normally optimized wide open or one stop closed, according to the owner's preference, focusing well at the widest apertures. Focus shift will be apparent @ something like f4.0 or f5.6 in that case.

[lct]

10 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Not if you use an EVF. The viewfinder will show you exact focus at all apertures, perfect for lenses that exhibit  focus shift.

Yes if you focus at full aperture with the EVF. Sure way to miss focus with lenses exhibiting focus shift.

[jdlaing]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Yes if you focus at full aperture with the EVF. Sure way to miss focus with lenses exhibiting focus shift.

Everybody keeps saying that.

Focus shift smokus shift.

The last thing you do with a rangefinder before you push the shutter release is focus.

Focus shift problems come from lenses where the camera sets aperture electronically.

[lct]

Focus shift is a lens issue, nothing else. It is just more or less obvious especially on rangefinders but also on mirrorless when focusing at full aperture.

[mujk]

At least on (D)SLRs, autofocus always happens at full aperture. In fact, phase-shift autofocus doesn't work reliably with smaller apertures (typically smaller than f5.6). Consequently, focus shift should be a big problem on these? Or is focus shift mostly a Leica M lens problem?

[jaapv]

No, it is a problem with many lenses, including (D)SLR ones. Nothing new here. However, it is never a BIG problem, except when a lens gets caught up in an Internet hype.

[jaapv]

On 9/19/2019 at 10:25 PM, lct said:

Yes if you focus at full aperture with the EVF.

So don't, at least with lenses where you might be bothered by focus shift.

[lct]

29 minutes ago, mujk said:

At least on (D)SLRs, autofocus always happens at full aperture. In fact, phase-shift autofocus doesn't work reliably with smaller apertures (typically smaller than f5.6). Consequently, focus shift should be a big problem on these? Or is focus shift mostly a Leica M lens problem?

Mostly lenses designed for film like ZM 50/1.5, VM 35/1.4 v1, VM 40/1.4,'Lux 35/1.4 asph v1, 'Cron 35/2 v4, etc. Later M lenses are designed for digital, or at least with digital in view, and tend to fix the problem: VM 35/1.4 v2, 'Lux 35/1.4 FLE, 'Cron 35/2 asph, etc. See what Stefan Daniel said about focus shift here (Google translation): https://tinyurl.com/yy2y8qla  

[jaapv]

It that any different to SLR lenses? Better divide between lenses from  the film era and the digital era.  The point is that the sensitive layer of a film has a certain thickness and is not completely flat, which camouflages small focus errors. Rangefinder or auto-aperture SLR does not make a difference. The original Summicron 35/2.0 asph is a pre-digital lens, BTW.
As the error is caused by spherical aberration, the amount of focus shift will vary depending on the lens design, regardless of the age, though.

In final analysis I blame pixel-peepng

[0luke1]

On 8/15/2019 at 2:10 PM, knisely said:

If I am shooting wide open I prefer the EVF. I like the peaking to determine my exact focus plane. Is it the eye or the nose? I just can't see the difference using the rangefinder. 

I find M10 focus peaking to be very disappointing. The Sony is better, Hasselblad X1D II is awesome.

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1 hour ago, 0luke1 said:

Hasselblad X1D II is awesome.

+1

Nobrainier ,,

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[setuporg]

This recurrent digression of an “EVF in an M body” keeps baffling me.  Have you guys clamoring for it noticed the SL and CL subforums?  Or the Q2?  Did Oscar Barnack invent an iconic electronic viewfinder?  Are Leica users entitled to one, just darn one camera which is not flickering?:)

Edited September 24, 2019 by setuporg
politeness

[lct]

6 hours ago, setuporg said:

This recurrent digression of an “EVF in an M body” keeps baffling me.  Have you guys clamoring for it noticed the SL and CL subforums?  Or the Q2?  Did Oscar Barnack invent an iconic electronic viewfinder?  Are Leica users entitled to one, just darn one camera which is not flickering?:)

None of those bodies is a compact full frame camera with interchangeable lenses in my book. Some people would be glad to have a mirrorless M, a full frame CL or a compact SL sort of. My adapted Sony is a great camera but as a Leica user for 30+ years i'd prefer a Leica if you don't mind.

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