When will S3 be available? {merged}

[Jeff S]

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Erlingmm Rumors.  I think you need a catchier name.

Jeff

[erlingmm]

21 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Erlingmm Rumors.  I think you need a catchier name.

Jeff

Thank you, but this is a fact, not a rumor. Let`s talk in 4 years.

[dave.gt]

1 hour ago, djmay said:

I do not buy products from a company when I am not comfortable about their long-term sustainability. I am certain about Leica, but not Hasselblad today. I will let the next three years prove whether Hasselblad will make it. The price is probably  too low, but this may be due to pressure for fast results.

 I like to buy something and then stay with it for a long time. I went through this evaluation when I decided on the S in 2016. I had some problems and Leica has taken care of me. Consequently I have continued to add to my S system. 

If I were interested in evf, which I am not, Fujifilm is leading the market and is financially stable.

This sky-is-falling fear about Leica’s job losses (and additions) is a very small matter except for the individuals who are losing their jobs. Work rules in Germany make it a better place to lose a job than in other countries. 

It shows that Leica management is thinking ahead. Time will tell how well the company adapts to changing conditions.

 

Thank goodness for the voice of reason...😎

[peterv]

Well, it stands to reason that would be the ideal scenario for all of us, while keeping an SLR option for the diehard OVF fans. The thing is, I have a feeling that the S system is positioned just fine. The lenses’ resolution will not be a problem for the foreseeable future and they will always produce their own unique look. As for the SLR design, there are still people shooting with a rangefinder today, fifty (?) years after it was pronounced dead 🙂

[onca]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb djmay:

I do not buy products from a company when I am not comfortable about their long-term sustainability. I am certain about Leica, but not Hasselblad today. I will let the next three years prove whether Hasselblad will make it. The price is probably  too low, but this may be due to pressure for fast results.

 I like to buy something and then stay with it for a long time. I went through this evaluation when I decided on the S in 2016. I had some problems and Leica has taken care of me. Consequently I have continued to add to my S system. 

If I were interested in evf, which I am not, Fujifilm is leading the market and is financially stable.

This sky-is-falling fear about Leica’s job losses (and additions) is a very small matter except for the individuals who are losing their jobs. Work rules in Germany make it a better place to lose a job than in other countries. 

It shows that Leica management is thinking ahead. Time will tell how well the company adapts to changing conditions.

 

I'm sure you must know.

[onca]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb pico:

An advantage of old age is that the experienced have witnessed so-called obsolescence often enough to know it is transient bullshit.

That's what I think. Just wait and see.

[onca]

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb erlingmm:

The S4 will be mirrorless and come in 3 years (+1 year delay)

But at the latest in five years leica Camera will still exist at all? I ask you where you are so smart.

[onca]

The fact that some people here cannot (want to) recognize the impending paradigm shift does not bury the fact that it does not take place. Good night boys... 

Edited June 25, 2019 by greybear

[Stuart Richardson]

As a current user of the Mamiya 7II and Hasselblad 200 series, and former user of the Rollei 6008AF, Leica R9, Sinar Hy6 series, I have wandered my way in to some wonderful and esoteric systems, all of which have found themselves written off at one point or another. Leica is almost certainly in a better situation than Rollei was, and obviously in a different position than Mamiya was, but there is a bit of a must in the air around the S system...that slight smell of stagnation that I have come to recognise over the years. These were all expensive, advanced and well-liked systems, popular with the people who used them. Unfortunately, not enough people used them to make them profitable for the companies selling them. I suspect the S3 will almost certainly be released. It is primarily built from existing components, apart from the sensor, and it has already been announced and field tested, so Leica pulling the plug on it entirely would likely do more harm than good. I hope the system is somehow invigorated, but I agree that it is likely the swan song for the S system, which will already be 14-15 years old or so by the time the S3 starts to age out of its product cycle. 

[dave.gt]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As a current user of the Mamiya 7II and Hasselblad 200 series, and former user of the Rollei 6008AF, Leica R9, Sinar Hy6 series, I have wandered my way in to some wonderful and esoteric systems, all of which have found themselves written off at one point or another. Leica is almost certainly in a better situation than Rollei was, and obviously in a different position than Mamiya was, but there is a bit of a must in the air around the S system...that slight smell of stagnation that I have come to recognise over the years. These were all expensive, advanced and well-liked systems, popular with the people who used them. Unfortunately, not enough people used them to make them profitable for the companies selling them. I suspect the S3 will almost certainly be released. It is primarily built from existing components, apart from the sensor, and it has already been announced and field tested, so Leica pulling the plug on it entirely would likely do more harm than good. I hope the system is somehow invigorated, but I agree that it is likely the swan song for the S system, which will already be 14-15 years old or so by the time the S3 starts to age out of its product cycle. 

Well said, and...Hahaha!!!!...it occurs to me..., What does that say about us, as photographers aging out of our own "product cycles"?  😮 Like you, I prefer to shoot now, whatever the camera. Why all the angst on all the forums for newer, better, smaller, faster, lighter, more, more and more?

When the newer products arrive, buy them... or not. The current S cameras are actually excellent as they are and the S3 will be as well. It is the photographer after all, right? I am afraid our community has become jaded, LOL. The reality is it's not like we are going to live forever, so why not enjoy the ride?😉

The Leica S rocks whatever model you use. Looking forward to the S3 myself but... Tomorrow will take care of itself. 

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Agreed. I am still shooting the 006 six years on because I like it so much. I am occasionally cranky because I want them to make something just as good, only with the possibilities of the latest technologies. Meanwhile, most of the pictures I have taken in the last year or two were made with wooden cameras, so technology is not everything....I heard someone mentioning folded optics in another thread...I am pretty sure that referring to view camera lenses small enough that you can fold them up without taking them off the camera, right? 

[Photon42]

14 hours ago, erlingmm said:

Thank you, but this is a fact, not a rumor. Let`s talk in 4 years.

Erling

not that I would mind an S4 in three to four years, but your fact still happens in the future 😳

At present, I would think Fuji, Hasselblad and Leica will still continue to exist in a couple of years as camera system manufacturers. Specifically with Leica and Hasselblad, the uncertainty may be who will then own and control them and whether the X1D and / or the S line continues. At this point, it does not matter too much for me, other that my heart wants them to survive as camera companies with proper legacy.

For digital medium format, I have chosen the S system, because in used condition it is accessible for me and produces outstanding images. For HC lenses, it still is the better system than the X1D. Go figure. All my Contax lenses seamlessly fit. The S with the Contax 2/80 is not much heavier than the X1D with the new 1.9/80 (which is not really available used).

[ynp]

48 minutes ago, Photon42 said:

The S with the Contax 2/80 is not much heavier than the X1D with the new 1.9/80 (which is not really available used).

+1 

and there is a light and wonderful Contax 55mm. It works as my S2P body cap. 

[ynp]

11 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As a current user of the Mamiya 7II and Hasselblad 200 series, and former user of the Rollei 6008AF, Leica R9, Sinar Hy6 series, I have wandered my way in to some wonderful and esoteric systems, all of which have found themselves written off at one point or another. Leica is almost certainly in a better situation than Rollei was, and obviously in a different position than Mamiya was, but there is a bit of a must in the air around the S system

I still have my Rollei 6008AF with the db20 and the Rollei tilt and shift lens. Almost all the systems I had in the past are dead. Had a Sinar- M set and the Hy6 , I still remember a  speech a Sinar representative gave to us when she declared the Sinar-M discontinued and promised that the Hy6 is the future. Both great systems are dead. 

I bought a Fujifilm 50r with the 45mm and 120mm and cannot say that I even like the camera. But it works, tether reliably and my cheap Godox 200 can sync HSS with it. 

I am not sure that I want the S3, but I will not make another  mistake and sell the S system even if more advanced cameras appeared. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Dead for development certainly does not mean dead for use. I agree, I have no problem with a discontinued system as long as it services my needs. That is, however, a bit harder with digital since the development is still moving so quickly, and at a certain point the advancements make it hard to ignore. Regarding the S, I think if the S3 comes out at a price I can stomach, I will certainly get one eventually. I hope, however, that they release it sooner rather than later, and at a price that a level that I can stomach. I wonder to what extent they were waiting for Hasselblad to see what the competition might do...now both Fuji and Hasselblad have published their prices, they have a bit more intel on what the market is doing. That said, Leica always seems to operate in their own universe in this regard, so that may not have much to do with it...

[rosuna]

The recent additions to the medium format market put Leica in a difficult position.

Phase One and Hasselblad H systems are for professionals, very specific applications (150MP backs), expensive systems. Eventually, they will face serious competitive problems. 

Fuji is the new standard profesional MF system (the new 100 MP camera, also the less expensive 50MP). Hasselblad is the reference now for the aficionados MF market, with sexy design and luxurious brand name. Fuji has even cheaper, but less glamorous alternatives. These systems will evolve.

Leica is as expensive as Phase One and Hasselblad H but it is a general purpose camera. It is too expensive compared with the Fujis as a professional tool, and too expensive compared too the Hassel X as an aficionado brand-sensitive camera. It is nowhere. 

To be competitive, the S needs a price (for the body) in the 10.000 euros range (+/-). Only at that price they can be competitive against Fuji or Hasselblad X offerings. 

If the cannot produce with a profit at those prices, the S system is already dead. 

[xiaubauu2009]

49 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Dead for development certainly does not mean dead for use. I agree, I have no problem with a discontinued system as long as it services my needs. That is, however, a bit harder with digital since the development is still moving so quickly, and at a certain point the advancements make it hard to ignore. Regarding the S, I think if the S3 comes out at a price I can stomach, I will certainly get one eventually. I hope, however, that they release it sooner rather than later, and at a price that a level that I can stomach. I wonder to what extent they were waiting for Hasselblad to see what the competition might do...now both Fuji and Hasselblad have published their prices, they have a bit more intel on what the market is doing. That said, Leica always seems to operate in their own universe in this regard, so that may not have much to do with it...

I can foresee it to be around 15000 ~ 20000USD... retail... tough...

[erlingmm]

I believe we have to brace ourselves for 20kEUR before tax, as announced, Leica alone probably has to cover the development costs for the new sensor, even if the body is the same. But it can only be justified by stellar performance.

BTW, I really miss comparable testing of MF cameras, with optics. How does 64 mpix on S compare with Fuji100, with lenses, in practical photography? With Hassy X1D?  Could we encourage Sean Reid to do this?

Personally I tend to think that we now are on the bleeding edge of performance on MF, and that one has to choose system mainly based on usage preferences (and optics) more than pure sensor performance. How do factors like weight/ergonomics, EVF/OVF, weather sealing, types of shutters, lens compatibility etc. count for you? And not least: Already invested.

Personally I will stay with the S system. Whether I will upgrade from S007 to S3 is an open question until I can evaluate a real-life S3 body, and the price of course.

Edited June 26, 2019 by erlingmm
Typo

[Stuart Richardson]

I agree with you Erling in that there are a number of things to think of between the systems. You are probably right about the price too, but I am not sure it was announced anywhere, was it? 

Regarding practical photography and imaging, based on my experience with the GFX 50, I would say that it out-resolved the S006 when I compared the two cameras, though it was not dramatic other than at high ISOs. The lens that I tried (63mm) had a flatter field than the 70mm Summarit, so it was sharper corner to corner as well, at least in the kinds of landscapes I photograph. My guess is that this will continue in the larger model, and I would suspect that the GFX 100 will outresolve the 64mp S rather handily. You have to keep aspect ratio in mind too...if you mostly shoot 4x3, 4x5 or 1 to 1, the GFX will give you a lot more usable data. The S3 will make better use of its pixels if you shoot 3 to 2 or wider. Resolution is very important to some, and not particularly important to others. The S system has fantastic lenses, though my personal take is that it could use a better version of the 70mm Summarit and 30-90 zooms. They are great for most systems, but are the weakest of the S system lenses. There is a lot to consider, especially if the price is close. 

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[Jeff S]

16 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The S system has fantastic lenses, though my personal take is that it could use a better version of the 70mm Summarit and 30-90 zooms. They are great for most systems, but are the weakest of the S system lenses. 

I’m well aware of the criticism regarding the zoom performance, but thought that the feedback on the 70 Summarit was quite positive. Have I missed some discussion or consensus?

Jeff