Leica SL2- ? L Alliance

[jonoslack]

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Removal of video on M10 was attributed to heat dissipation issues however your argument doesn't stack up for still image on any hardware platform.

 

 

I thought that removal of video on the M10 was because they needed to save space to make the camera thinner.

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[mmradman]

I thought that removal of video on the M10 was because they needed to save space to make the camera thinner.

Please humour me, how does it work?

[Chaemono]

Video would have required additional connections, like HDMI, microphone plugs, etc. Circuit board would have required audio chip. Not hard to see how this may add to the bulk of the body, is it?

[MarkP]

 

 

It seems almost certain that an SL2 will share at least, some of the S1R technology. We might even see an SL2 and SL2R... There will be some Leica DNA involved and you'll essentially be paying for that rather than any real world IQ differences.

 

I'd pay the extra to share batteries with my SL. For the Leica menus and interface. For the build quality and feel. For DNG files. I will get a Leica if I can because I enjoy shooting with them, regardless of the tech inside. I have several other brands and I almost always get a bit frustrated with them because they get in the way sometimes. Leicas get out of the way.

 

But hear me now Leica. I will not buy another Leica camera with mandatory LENR.

 

Gordon

 

The mandatory LENR really pisses me off. One can only stand around in the dark and cold for so long...

[mmradman]

Video would have required additional connections, like HDMI, microphone plugs, etc. Circuit board would have required audio chip. Not hard to see how this may add to the bulk of the body, is it?

You are describing Stills & Video digital camera like SL601, however we are currently sidetracked debating relationship between Video and M line in the context of LENR. 

M10 predecessor, the M240 which was video enabled, had none of those ports you mention, actually body has only one port at the back below the hot shoe, required to plug in external EVF.  Additional function grip provided some extra connectivity.

 

To make it clear i am not debating video in M camera but about enabling user to make LENR On-Off selection in SL camera, also in other Leica digital cameras.

[jaapv]

On the M8 (on early firmware of the M9 as well, IIRC) one could clearly see the LENR functioning. Believe me, the image without LENR was totally unusable.

[PeterGA]

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and there I was thinking that decisive moments are all over rather quickly...

[helged]

The mandatory LENR really pisses me off. One can only stand around in the dark and cold for so long...

On the M8 (on early firmware of the M9 as well, IIRC) one could clearly see the LENR functioning. Believe me, the image without LENR was totally unusable.

By no means directly transferrable to the SL - there are rumors that no LENR does work on the SL (albeit possibly not at acceptable Leica standards since we have yet to see the option to switch LENR off).

 

To LENR or not: The acid test will be what the S3 will deliver...

Edited October 1, 2018 by helged

[FlashGordonPhotography]

It is highly unlikely that mandatory LENR is an uncontrollable heat issue. As far as I'm aware a dark frame does produce more sensor heat, not less.We can compare the X1D (up to 1 hr with no LENR) to the S007 or the A7R3 to the SL/M10/CL etc and see clearly that size isn't the issue. The X1D uses it's body as a heat sink. The SL could easily do the same. Also the M8 and M9 were CCD sensors. They're not a relevant measure. Unless there is something specific to Leica sensors (like there is with Foveon for example) it's most likely just Leica telling us what they think is best for us. Same as no brightness adjustment for the SL EVF or the recently reversed (THANK YOU LEICA!!) mandatory review on half shutter press. It's just Leica policy. Much like Olympuses choice of torturous menus. 

 

Don't get me wrong. Sometimes I might *CHOOSE* LENR. But if it's 3 am and -5 degrees I don't think heat is an issue. Waiting another 15 minutes for a second shot is.

 

Gordon

 

p.s. as far as I am aware the M10's thinness is due to the lack of video and heat build up that could damage the sensor. Much more likely in video than stills though.

[jonoslack]

 

 

To make it clear i am not debating video in M camera but about enabling user to make LENR On-Off selection in SL camera, also in other Leica digital cameras.

 

 

Well, I don't think anyone would disagree with you about that . . . . 

[jaapv]

It is highly unlikely that mandatory LENR is an uncontrollable heat issue. As far as I'm aware a dark frame does produce more sensor heat, not less.We can compare the X1D (up to 1 hr with no LENR) to the S007 or the A7R3 to the SL/M10/CL etc and see clearly that size isn't the issue. The X1D uses it's body as a heat sink. The SL could easily do the same. Also the M8 and M9 were CCD sensors. They're not a relevant measure. Unless there is something specific to Leica sensors (like there is with Foveon for example) it's most likely just Leica telling us what they think is best for us. Same as no brightness adjustment for the SL EVF or the recently reversed (THANK YOU LEICA!!) mandatory review on half shutter press. It's just Leica policy. Much like Olympuses choice of torturous menus. 

 

Don't get me wrong. Sometimes I might *CHOOSE* LENR. But if it's 3 am and -5 degrees I don't think heat is an issue. Waiting another 15 minutes for a second shot is.

 

Gordon

 

p.s. as far as I am aware the M10's thinness is due to the lack of video and heat build up that could damage the sensor. Much more likely in video than stills though.ls, so a sensor must be able to keep as cool as possible.

I never said it was uncontrollable. The point, however, is that heat build-up will generate pixel noise that is best eliminated by LENR. Cooling is essential for long exposures and I suspect Leica bodies are not the best on the market in that respect.

 

In astrophotography LENR and cooling are hot topics (excuse the pun )

See this post in an astronomer's LENR discussion.:

 

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/563601-dslr-in-camera-noise-reduction/?p=7659374

 

 

In general, I do wish that Leica would provide some background for their design decision, if only to provide some understanding.

[jaapv]

You are describing Stills & Video digital camera like SL601, however we are currently sidetracked debating relationship between Video and M line in the context of LENR. 

M10 predecessor, the M240 which was video enabled, had none of those ports you mention, actually body has only one port at the back below the hot shoe, required to plug in external EVF.  Additional function grip provided some extra connectivity.

 

To make it clear i am not debating video in M camera but about enabling user to make LENR On-Off selection in SL camera, also in other Leica digital cameras.

Indeed. If they can fit video into an iPhone, how much space can it take up?

Nothing to do with LENR, however. If somebody can show me that digital noise reduction is as effective for heat-noise elimination as LENR, I would be happy (and so would Leica, I suspect)

[mmradman]

Indeed. If they can fit video into an iPhone, how much space can it take up?

Nothing to do with LENR, however. If somebody can show me that digital noise reduction is as effective for heat-noise elimination as LENR, I would be happy (and so would Leica, I suspect)

See post #29 by FlashGordonPhotography.  Long exposure without LENR works with other brands.  My old Nikon D700 [2008 vintage] have option to select level of noise reduction, mine has noise Reduction set to OFF, no ill effects for any exposure and no smooth plastic looking files either.

 

Maybe time for Leica to have a serious look at this and start making changes in their product development and customer relations approach, it may be actually profitable, it is our money that buys what we need or want.

[jaapv]

Yes - have you looked at the cooling possibilities of that Nikon sensor; air flow around it, for instance, not crammed up against the rear like Leica cameras, with a customer base that manages to decry the M240 as a behemoth - for 0.5 mm thicker...

 

If you are prepared to have your Leicas half a cm thicker, you can have no-LENR, IBIS, sensor cleaning, etc.

 

I am sure that there is no need to tell you of all people that any tool has its compromises and limitations, and that we need to choose the tool for the job.

[mmradman]

German engineering companies have technical abilities that are in many cases second to none, for a company that manged to create Full Frame DRF despite stating initially it was impossible a bit of sensor firmware tweaking to achieve NR-Off would be simple task, everybody else succeeded in doing this. 

 

I see mind set similar to Leica's in my day job.  Hard work convincing well known German Power Engineering company to do as customer asks, chances are it may loose major commercial opportunity by being themselves. 

[LD_50]

Yes - have you looked at the cooling possibilities of that Nikon sensor; air flow around it, for instance, not crammed up against the rear like Leica cameras, with a customer base that manages to decry the M240 as a behemoth - for 0.5 mm thicker...

 

If you are prepared to have your Leicas half a cm thicker, you can have no-LENR, IBIS, sensor cleaning, etc.

 

I am sure that there is no need to tell you of all people that any tool has its compromises and limitations, and that we need to choose the tool for the job.

Allowing the photographer to disable LENR does not require hardware changes.

 

Simply allowing me to shoot the dark frame when I choose for later dark frame subtraction during post processing would be enough. I could shoot my long exposures and then when I’m done shoot one dark frame to be used with all the exposures. I believe Phase One allows this method of shooting.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Yes - have you looked at the cooling possibilities of that Nikon sensor; air flow around it, for instance, not crammed up against the rear like Leica cameras, with a customer base that manages to decry the M240 as a behemoth - for 0.5 mm thicker...

 

If you are prepared to have your Leicas half a cm thicker, you can have no-LENR, IBIS, sensor cleaning, etc.

 

I am sure that there is no need to tell you of all people that any tool has its compromises and limitations, and that we need to choose the tool for the job.

 

The X1D is thinner than the SL. It uses a larger sensor than the SL. It uses and older sensor than the SL. The SL is quite happy making long 4k video clips or UHD at 60FPS. That puts a lot more stress on a sensor than a longer still exposure. Sorry, but the airflow thing just doesn't stack up. And I mention again, a dark frame makes more heat, not less because the sensor makes a second exposure, every time.

 

Leica have LENR as mandatory on EVERY non-rebadged camera they make. It's a corporate decision and not a technical one. It might well be, that some Leica cameras have heat issues. But the SL doesn't (by nature of it's video capabilities). I think we'd be OK if it were explained and implemented on a camera by camera basis rather than an across the board swipe of the corporate pen.

 

I am not disputing that LENR is a good idea. It is. Just that mandatory LENR is a bad one because sometimes you might need to compromise a bit of IQ to get the shot (which is exactly the same principle as raising the ISO). It also ignores environmental conditions where it's cold enough to assist keeping the sensor cooler.

 

Gordon

Edited October 2, 2018 by FlashGordonPhotography

[jonoslack]

I see mind set similar to Leica's in my day job. Hard work convincing well known German Power Engineering company to do as customer asks, chances are it may loose major commercial opportunity by being themselves.

Oh! I understand your point, but Fujifilm’s renowned ability to do as the customer asks has resulted in 20 page menus for things none of us need. (And mostly don’t understand)

 

I agree with you about LENR and will certainly talk about it with them, but “doing as the customer asks” I don’t think so!

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[mmradman]

Oh! I understand your point, but Fujifilm’s renowned ability to do as the customer asks has resulted in 20 page menus for things none of us need. (And mostly don’t understand)

I agree with you about LENR and will certainly talk about it with them, but “doing as the customer asks” I don’t think so!

If you are in position to talk to people at Leica who can influence implementation of LENR please do mention that peasants are rebelling. If it ever gets implemented it may turn to be a very smart move.

 

What is wrong with customer ask? Which part of customer-supplier relationship is difficult to understand?

[Nordvik]

Yes - have you looked at the cooling possibilities of that Nikon sensor; air flow around it, for instance, not crammed up against the rear like Leica cameras, with a customer base that manages to decry the M240 as a behemoth - for 0.5 mm thicker...

 

If you are prepared to have your Leicas half a cm thicker, you can have no-LENR, IBIS, sensor cleaning, etc.

 

I am sure that there is no need to tell you of all people that any tool has its compromises and limitations, and that we need to choose the tool for the job.

Why do you go on and on with this M240 argument? It is getting very boring. You like video, many of us do not.

If you look at the sensor-plane for the M10 and the SL there is a lot of room behind the SL. And no room behind the M10. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?