M10 M-D

[davidmknoble]

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17 hours ago, schattenundlicht said:

I am myself astonished that I feel so strongly about this. I find the faux lever even more offensive than the laughable Hermes handbag editions of old. To me, it is a betrayal of the design philosophy that made Leica great in the first place, and of the M series that, although a break with Barnack‘s LTM design, was yet an extension of his functional principles. On the bottom line it is just so mind boggling ridiculous.

I will lay it to rest now and enjoy my M3,7,9,10 

I guess the thumb rest is either really like or really dislike.  I use my MP's so much for film that I always keep the lever out when I hold the camera.  It is comfortable and helps me hold it steady.  I like the idea that I have one on the M10-D because it is already natural for me.  I don't care what it does or doesn't do beyond helping me hold the camera. 

I think like others, some want the nub on the back with the wheel, some like Thumbs Up, some even like a leather body case with a bump to help hold it- so a wide variety of choice.  I think I'll like that choice.  (Like the M3,7,9,10, just sounds good).

Since the idea of this camera is using it like a film camera, without feedback after taking a photograph and trusting your ability to capture the image, then the idea that it has an advance lever like film camera makes sense.  For me, that 'thumb rest' plus the size of the M10 body finally make holding a film camera and digital camera basically equivalent.  So, I can switch between them even easier.

So, I'm on the other side of that fence.

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[IkarusJohn]

26 minutes ago, Outdoorimages said:

I guess the thumb rest is either really like or really dislike ... So, I'm on the other side of that fence.

No, I'm still on the fence.

[Jeff S]

The camera is perfect for fence sitters.  Don’t know which thumb rest to use?  Fine, there are two of them to choose.  Not sure if you want a screen?  Fine, use the camera as is or carry a separately powered screen in your pocket.  And you can use that screen to post on the forum, too. 

Jeff

Edited October 26, 2018 by Jeff S

[IkarusJohn]

54 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The camera is perfect for fence sitters.  Don’t know which thumb rest to use?  Fine, there are two of them to choose.  Not sure if you want a screen?  Fine, use the camera as is or carry a separately powered screen in your pocket.  And you can use that screen to post on the forum, too. 

Jeff

None of which induces me to jump one way or the other ...

Edited October 26, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

None of which induces me to jump one way or the other ...

Of course not... it’s perfect for fence sitting.

Jeff

[HELM]

Pico we may be closer than apart.

I don't want Leica to add expensive  touch screens, a fold out LCD plus A million little stupid buttons and features buried in menus in my camera (see Sony). I have a smartphone for menus and a touchscreen (and its worlds faster and better).

I want a camera that is a great camera that can use world class lenses to then export the image I took fluidly. If you like the image as-is you are done

The App in the Smartphone can evolve without me having to buy a new camera just to get that touchscreen (see M10-P)

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

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I'm glad we are getting past the thumb rest* to the really novel questions that the WiFi-enabled and WiFi-dependent** M10-D really raises.  Which are what rich added functions can be carried out with the power of a recent laptop in your pocket, and a dataplan to share the results.  And can it actually operate at the time in which you are shooting or is this strictly for the coffeeshop afterwards.?  Is this going to change the nature of small max-quality cameras?  Or will it contribute to making cameras go away entirely, to be replaced by communicating devices with imaging power, which can do anything and manage your whole life for you.

Bear in mind that the power cost of today's wifi chips and the range that they support between sender and receiver (they support studio distances, when hand-to-shirtpocket might make more sense) leaves the M10-D a long way from supporting these ultimate scenarios.  And that although the M10-D instruction manual lists pages of interesting options that can be set with the app, the public downloadable app presently has none of them.  The press release screenshots show some of the claimed functions, and there is a version under development with some of them.  You can see it in Kai's video.  We'll have to give Leica another several months to see how far they manage to take this whole process.

 

* Well, not all of us.  Some have stopped there and won't go any further.

**Except when you decide that the camera is now set up as you like it and pay no further attention to the cloud in your pocket.

[LocalHero1953]

I agree that the camera-phone combo is in its infancy at the moment. I find Leica's Fotos app to be a great starting point in concept and designed functionality, but still well short in terms of performance: others have reported faster downloads than myself, but this is still an area where great improvement is needed - and will almost certainly happen in future. To make this camera-phone combo work properly, for the M10-D or other models, the process has to get a lot slicker. If I want to use my phone as a remote EVF for my camera (e.g. because my camera has no flip-out screen for use in awkward locations) I want it to be ready now, not when I have gone through the current palaver of turning on the WLAN. So there should be:

- automatic connection between the two when in range, in the same way as my phone finds and connects to a wifi network, or makes a bluetooth connection to my car when I get into it. This facility appears to have no significant battery drain on my phone, so it shouldn't on the camera either.

- use of third party wifi networks; the camera shouldn't have to create a network for the phone to join (and so cut the phone off from the internet). The camera should use my home/office/studio (etc) wifi when available, and memorise it so as not to ask me to log in each time. My phone does it already.

The consequence of connecting cameras and phones is that you start to realise how primitive the functionality and performance of the former is in comparison. Lots more work still to be done for the Leica Fotos and wifi R&D teams.

Edited October 26, 2018 by LocalHero1953

[Guest]

Well the "D" has certainly generated some delicious heat on the forum these past couple of days or so......

Of course I haven't handled one, yet....but on reading through the comments and the couple of reviews both here on the Forum and elsewhere on the web I feel I have formed a more complete impression of the camera now than perhaps I had originally when I posted just prior to it's release.

First, as with the M10 I am not a fan of the ASA dial, BUT unlike the M10 on the M10-D I have to admit it makes sense for obvious reasons.

I do not like being tethered to a "smart" phone, either in everyday life or in this case by a camera so that's a feature that I'd rarely use, or as with my present M10.....Never.

Ok, if like me you're not a fan of downloading over WiFi, a function that's getting oh too prevalent with cameras nowadays then it's back to taking out the SDHC card and downloading into a computer the "old" way and I have no problem with that at all. Where I do have a problem is trying to understand why Leica persists with the full base on it's new M's rather than having a "door" like they fit to the Q and other cameras a long time ago now. This is just infuriatingly nuts.

I like the "simplicity" ethic of the MD cameras a whole hell of a lot, it's very attractive but for me the WiFi stuff is leaning the camera back towards what I thought it was trying to get away from.

However as a wide angle lens fan I like the fact that the EVF function has been incorporated into the new MD, but as I do loath the fact that one will have to pair with a so called smart phone to make some setting changes on the camera I do wish that functionality was offered within the EVF too so one doesn't have to connect with another device. But maybe, like my M10, the 240 and the MM1, once set I rarely have to change settings other than the normal shutter speed, iris, ASA, and exposure compensation and they are all there to hand anyway without having to phone-dive.

The "film crank", well that's the main contender for most of the angst after the MD's release, and I for one at first fully agreed with the criticisms and added my own to the hue and cry, but on reading reviews by those who've actually used the camera perhaps my stance has softened to "suck it and see". I still think that it looks sorta stupid, but whether or not it is stupid will have to await a try-out of the camera.

And yes, I've one on order. God help me.

 

[a.noctilux]

Peter, will you keep your M10 when the new one arrive ?

[Guest]

Oh yes Arnaud, the MD will be just a personal camera. For my work I need to have "on the job" security in regards to the images whether that's with my M systems or the Nikon gear I own so a good LCD is an essential tool these days.

Incidentally after briefly considering whether I should change to an all Leica kit of Pro' cameras and switch from my present Nikon 810 DSLRs to the Leica SL environment I've decided to go with the Nikon Z6 sometime after it becomes available here in France. It just makes a whole lot more sense for me at a number of levels.

[a.noctilux]

Thanks Peter for your reply.

I understand "job security".

With Nikon Z6 in place of Leica SL, you gain some weight/bulk.

 

I'm lucky not to have clients to satisfy, so I'm going to lighten my gear only for me.

I'm  thinking of "upgrade 2 for 1" with M10 + M-D(262) trade in  for M10-D, now or

waiting for the ultimate Monochrome M10-D (which may not come 😏 ) to part also with my now MM1.

[Guest]

Bonjour encore Arnaud,

I just got a callback from my Leica dealer, ( in Bordeaux ), and they expect to be ready to ship out a M10-MD to me late next week. That's a whole lot quicker than I expected because I was told that France had less than 10 cameras allocated at this time. One strange question the dealer threw my way though was whether I wanted Black or Chrome? I thought they were only making them in Black at this time, maybe not (?)

The Nikon choice? Well even though I do love the Leica marque in fact that decision was quite simple. I have a lot of Nikon lenses some recent and some going back decades and as all of them will be usable on the Z series with the Ai-Z mount active adapter that even allowed some degree of IBS on the older Ai optics too the choices was sort of obvious even sensible. Also to be frank the Z's offer more and better video flexibility which for me is useful, and apart from less weight there would be considerably less damage to the wallet....So a bit of a "no-brainer".

The Monochrom conundrum? I wouldn't part with my MM1 whatever or whenever Leica comes out with next in that line. The CCD sensor is just so unique and even when tempted to change up when I trailed the MM2 I couldn't do it. You may regret the loss if you do trade it in.

a'bientot

Peter

 

 

[Photon42]

10 minutes ago, petermullett said:

Bonjour encore Arnaud,

I just got a callback from my Leica dealer, ( in Bordeaux ), and they expect to be ready to ship out a M10-MD to me late next week. That's a whole lot quicker than I expected because I was told that France had less than 10 cameras allocated at this time. One strange question the dealer threw my way though was whether I wanted Black or Chrome? I thought they were only making them in Black at this time, maybe not (?)

The Nikon choice? Well even though I do love the Leica marque in fact that decision was quite simple. I have a lot of Nikon lenses some recent and some going back decades and as all of them will be usable on the Z series with the Ai-Z mount active adapter that even allowed some degree of IBS on the older Ai optics too the choices was sort of obvious even sensible. Also to be frank the Z's offer more and better video flexibility which for me is useful, and apart from less weight there would be considerably less damage to the wallet....So a bit of a "no-brainer".

The Monochrom conundrum? I wouldn't part with my MM1 whatever or whenever Leica comes out with next in that line. The CCD sensor is just so unique and even when tempted to change up when I trailed the MM2 I couldn't do it. You may regret the loss if you do trade it in.

a'bientot

Peter

 

 

Bonjour Peter (même si je ne suis pas Arnaud ...)

there will be a Leica M mount Z mount adapter available. Given the reduced sensor glass stack of the Z, it may actually work out not to badly.

Amicalement

Ivo

 

[a.noctilux]

Good news Peter.

Exploring the web, availability of M10-D is really unexpected.

I thought that new Leica M is available for sale only some time after announcement.

"Cerise sur le gateau" Chrome or Black !

Really interesting, I'll order Chrome 👍.

Maybe the market for M10-D is very narrow as M-D before that.

I take note for the CCD sensor for Monochrom.

Thanks Peter.

[Guest]

Interesting, thank you Ivo.......

What I would like to have, and I am sure it will come to the Z Mount, would be a PL-Z mount adapter, that would be very useful for me.

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

Exploring the web, availability of M10-D is really unexpected.

I thought that new Leica M is available for sale only some time after announcement.

 

My source, Popflash, had one shipped to them overnight and arriving the day of the announcement.  It is enroute to me now!!

[SMAL]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb ynp:

Hi.

There is a reason why the old digital back , designed to shoot only RAW files in the brand specific format and  able to generate only jpeg files for  a tiny screen ( not always) had white balance functionality build in. 

It was not only the matter of convenience, they were not built for convenience, it’s the matter of correct interpretation of color by a digital sensor. 

At least in my very limited amateurish experience, when the color balance set on my m9 and S2 is terribly wrong, I would be fighting with the purple and dark red colors to make them right. Maybe you have newer cameras and sensors and they behave in a different way. So for me the auto balance is a thing I try to avoid. A passport or a grey card is a necessary part of my workflow. 

Yevgeny 

 

p.s. Sorry for my long of topic post. 

I can´t speak for CCD sensor Leicas since I only own the Leica Q and the M10. Besides these I owned several Canons from T3i over, 6D, 5D Mark II, Mark III, 6D Mark II. I also own a Fuji X100T and also own and use a Sony A7III and A7rIII. I also have edited this thousands of RAW files from Nikon D610. D750 and D800 and ALL of them behave the same regarding white balance. Even when the camera goes way too cold there is no color shift or anything. And of course this all refers to shooting RAW.

Do you have by any chance a raw file you could share from your M9 for example that shows this issue? I´d love to see it.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest]

2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Exploring the web, availability of M10-D is really unexpected.

I thought that new Leica M is available for sale only some time after announcement.

Yes, me too........It caught me by surprise when my regular Leica dealer said that they could get one to me by next week, I wasn't entirely ready for that. The end of the year would have been fine, but anyway it'll be good to have an MD in my kit, sooner it seems rather than later! 

Maybe this time Leica made sure that they had cameras in stock ready to go after the announcement, or there's not the interest or demand for the camera. Time will tell.

[ramarren]

7 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

... Which are what rich added functions can be carried out with the power of a recent laptop in your pocket, and a dataplan to share the results.  And can it actually operate at the time in which you are shooting or is this strictly for the coffeeshop afterwards.?  Is this going to change the nature of small max-quality cameras?  Or will it contribute to making cameras go away entirely, to be replaced by communicating devices with imaging power, which can do anything and manage your whole life for you.

...

Why do I need "rich added functions"? All of my picture taking workflow resolves down to "focus in the right spot, set the exposure parameters, press the shutter release at the right time". It's pretty simple really ... I don't need a lot of fancy functions or settings if I'm capturing raw data (always) and know how my camera's lenses and sensor respond to ISO, time, aperture, and focus settings, and I am skilled at operating its controls. It's easier to do this with the camera than by managing two devices simultaneously. I almost never change the camera configuration beyond setting the camera to output raw files, and turning off most of the automation so that it operates more simply and consistently.

What I use the remote app for with the CL currently is two things:

• To review what's on the card after a photo session while traveling so that I can download a couple of selected exposures to my processing workflow while away from my desktop.
• To release the shutter without jarring the camera in the absence of a remote release on the CL body when using a long lens and tripod or a copy stand setup. 

The whole point of the M-D for me was its utter simplicity and ease of use. The major draw to the M10-D is the newer sensor, the improved viewfinder, and the increased versatility of being able to use an EVF with adapted lenses and accessories for those situations where focusing and framing is out of scope for an optical rangefinder. I never "share" photos directly out of a camera so the only useful part of the WiFi utility is the ability to transfer a couple of raw files to an image processing system in the field with minimal fuss, or to release the shutter ... but the M10-D takes a cable release, so I don't need it for that. The rest of it is just "stuff I don't need", and often don't want. I'm not enthused by the new ISO setting control, or EV compensation control, or power switch control. To me, they're in the wrong locations. But they're notably just an "eh, who cares ... my fingers will figure it out eventually" kind of annoyance. 

I guess I'm just not all that excited by layering on new complexity when the simple stuff just works and doesn't need any external appendages. There remain very few things beyond what an M7 film camera provides that I find useful in picture taking, other than having a good digital sensor to relieve the boredom of processing and scanning film. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by ramarren