lukedavidkellett Posted July 31, 2018 Share #1 Posted July 31, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) IN BUILT LIGHT METER HELP! Hey Guys, I am totally new to the forum and digital Leica's. So hello everyone :-) I am a professional photographer from Australia, I have shot a number of cameras over my career much like most of you all, here is a sample list so you can get some context of my experience with different systems and therefore my experience with different in built light meters. Nikon FM's Contax G2 Contax T2 Leica M's (film) Mamiya RZ's / RB's Hasselblad 500's Pentax 67's Linhof Technika's Over the last 5 years I have been shooting digitally with: Phase one Fuji X I have recently purchased an M10 with a couple of lenses (35mm and 50mm) for my personal / documentary work to replace the Fuji's. Amazing decision and I'm absolutely stoked to be shooting with this glorious machine. OK so here is my experience, the in built light meter is totally all over the place! I have never ever had an issue with an in built light meter quite as much as this M10. It appears to grossly underexposed all its readings, freaks out with contrasty exteriors (remember I am in Australia the light is intense no sunny 16 here). Has anyone else had this issue? Does it just take some getting used to again? Have I been too exposed to digital Fuji automated trickery too long? Settings so you know where I am at: Center-Weighted exposure metering mode. I am aware of taking a reading from my hand and slecting a point in a scene to meter from half press and then recompose. This all works. I am talking about center frame standard metering of a scene any kind of contrast or ANY bright light in a scene freaks it out. Example image of my wife and my kitchen. This is what it determined correct, the lights from the cook top 100% perfect the overall scene probably about half a stop to one full stop under in my opinion, this is what I would expect from SPOT METERING NOT Centre-Weighted. There are many other examples this is just a quick one. Please refrain from focusing specifically on this example image and tell me your personal experiences even if it is.... Shut up Luke it works well you're not doing it right Image metadata = ISO100, 1/25th second, F1.4 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287113-leica-m10-light-meter-underexposing/?do=findComment&comment=3564494'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Hi lukedavidkellett, Take a look here Leica M10 Light meter underexposing. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Luke_Miller Posted July 31, 2018 Share #2 Posted July 31, 2018 While I don't have an M10, your image looks like what I would get with my M-240 in the same circumstance. The M metering is very sensitive to a light source in the frame and in my experience seems to try and preserve highlights. Were I taking a similar shot I would point the camera down just far enough so that the light sources are no longer in the frame and half-press the shutter release to lock exposure. Then re-compose and take the shot. It is a bit of a change if one is used to modern matrix metering cameras. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted July 31, 2018 Share #3 Posted July 31, 2018 My experience with many digital Leica M including the M10 that exposure is very much depending where you point the camera. If you have contrasty scenes it is not easy to make sure that you meter the right area in the image. The optical finder doesnt make this easier. I can not get as reliable metering with the digital M as I can get with my other cameras. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted July 31, 2018 Share #4 Posted July 31, 2018 I have found that spot metering is more consistently accurate for me. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARobinson Posted July 31, 2018 Share #5 Posted July 31, 2018 Do you have any exposure compensation set? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted July 31, 2018 Share #6 Posted July 31, 2018 Why use 100 ISO ? (the worse setting in my experience of M10 "pull") DNG or JPEG ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunos Posted July 31, 2018 Share #7 Posted July 31, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) The M10 is my first Leica M series camera. I have been using it for around 6 months in various outside lighting conditions. I find that the light meter (centre weighted, not using live view) can give very confusing results whenever there is a scene that either includes a light source (such as you have shown above) or where there is a strong highlight yet the rest of the scene is in shadow. I am starting to learn how it reacts based on the light in the scene and using exposure compensation to correct. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2018 Share #8 Posted July 31, 2018 It may well be that the term "centre-weighed" is confusing to some. Let's analyse the metering pattern, as it is more like a extended spot meter than a gradual centre-weighed. Once one has the pattern in mind, the use of the meter becomes self-explaining. courtesy Lindolfi, from the Leica M FAQ Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This also shows that it is rather useless to set a fixed exposure compensation, as the amount of compensation needed depends entirely on the position of the highlights and shadows. The best way to go about it is to treat it as a real spot meter and point the centre of the viewfinder at the essential part of the image and recompose, much as you are doing with the focusing. So: point-focus-half-press-recompose-shoot. Or, even better, don't use "A" and half-press, but manual exposure. That is basically what the camera does best. 4 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This also shows that it is rather useless to set a fixed exposure compensation, as the amount of compensation needed depends entirely on the position of the highlights and shadows. The best way to go about it is to treat it as a real spot meter and point the centre of the viewfinder at the essential part of the image and recompose, much as you are doing with the focusing. So: point-focus-half-press-recompose-shoot. Or, even better, don't use "A" and half-press, but manual exposure. That is basically what the camera does best. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287113-leica-m10-light-meter-underexposing/?do=findComment&comment=3564556'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2018 Share #9 Posted July 31, 2018 Why use 100 ISO ? (the worse setting in my experience of M10 "pull") DNG or JPEG ? Both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted July 31, 2018 Share #10 Posted July 31, 2018 As long time M user, I know well how to use this metering pattern. Yes avoid if possible spot/bright light to be in the measuring operation. Even here, the underexposure can be easily work out in post. Here, I only relying on the histogram from your picture, move one cursor... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Not perfect but "possible to clear up". 4 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Not perfect but "possible to clear up". ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287113-leica-m10-light-meter-underexposing/?do=findComment&comment=3564562'>More sharing options...
jmahto Posted July 31, 2018 Share #11 Posted July 31, 2018 IN BUILT LIGHT METER HELP! Hey Guys, I am totally new to the forum and digital Leica's. So hello everyone :-) I am a professional photographer from Australia, I have shot a number of cameras over my career much like most of you all, here is a sample list so you can get some context of my experience with different systems and therefore my experience with different in built light meters. Nikon FM's Contax G2 Contax T2 Leica M's (film) Mamiya RZ's / RB's Hasselblad 500's Pentax 67's Linhof Technika's Over the last 5 years I have been shooting digitally with: Phase one Fuji X I have recently purchased an M10 with a couple of lenses (35mm and 50mm) for my personal / documentary work to replace the Fuji's. Amazing decision and I'm absolutely stoked to be shooting with this glorious machine. OK so here is my experience, the in built light meter is totally all over the place! I have never ever had an issue with an in built light meter quite as much as this M10. It appears to grossly underexposed all its readings, freaks out with contrasty exteriors (remember I am in Australia the light is intense no sunny 16 here). Has anyone else had this issue? Does it just take some getting used to again? Have I been too exposed to digital Fuji automated trickery too long? Settings so you know where I am at: Center-Weighted exposure metering mode. I am aware of taking a reading from my hand and slecting a point in a scene to meter from half press and then recompose. This all works. I am talking about center frame standard metering of a scene any kind of contrast or ANY bright light in a scene freaks it out. Example image of my wife and my kitchen. This is what it determined correct, the lights from the cook top 100% perfect the overall scene probably about half a stop to one full stop under in my opinion, this is what I would expect from SPOT METERING NOT Centre-Weighted. There are many other examples this is just a quick one. Please refrain from focusing specifically on this example image and tell me your personal experiences even if it is.... Shut up Luke it works well you're not doing it right Image metadata = ISO100, 1/25th second, F1.4 If you (or the camera's auto exposure), had exposed this scene more then the colors on the brightly lit clothing and other bright areas would have been washed away. I like the way digital M's simple center weighted light metering preserves the bright areas. The darker areas can be lifted in PP as in Arnaud's fix above. It is exposing for the highlights. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobert Posted July 31, 2018 Share #12 Posted July 31, 2018 @a.noctilux, I think we all want the best as possible result out of the camera. The better the exposure is, the better the post-processing possibilities are. As to the remark of TS, I, coming from Nikon D700 (having the best metering I’ve ever experienced), had to go through a learning curve as well. After some time, you will acknowledge the metering of the M10 under specific circumstances. Now, my exposure is almost always correct. Saying that, I never use the +/- option, but If necessary, I compensate by metering downwards or upwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 31, 2018 Share #13 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) The key point I would add to those so far, is illustrated by a.noctilux in post #10. 1) The M10's image processing in the camera imposes a very strong default contrast curve on the image data. That is, the shadows can look very dark straight from the camera, but so long as one is shooting .DNG (raw, 12/14-bit data) there is lots of actual detail there, that can be restored on the computer with a "curves" or "shadows" adjustment. I have a theory about why Leica did that with the M10, but you have to know Leica's digital evolution for it to make sense. The CCD M8/M9 cameras had relatively low dynamic range, and contrasty, brilliant colors. When the first CMOS Leica (M typ 240) arrived, with extended DR, many users complained its pictures/colors were too "gray" and dull straight from the camera - not what they were accustomed to. With the M10, Leica decided, "OK, you want punchy M9 colors? Fine. Here they are!" with a stronger default contrast mapping. Fortunately, there is room to bring up the shadows in post-processing, without a lot of problem with additional "noise" (you're just getting back to the data as originally output by the sensor). 2) Are you using the glass "window" viewfinder? Or electronic viewing and composing (EVF, or Live-View on the back)? If you are using the glass/frameline finder, then 1) there is only one metering mode actually available, no matter what you have selected in the menu, because it is hard-wired right into the construction of the camera, and 2) that mode is strongly center-weighted, as shown in Jaap's diagram in post #8. In reality, a "wide spot" meter more than "center weighted." Much closer in behavior to the old Nikon F3 meter than a Nikon FM2 meter. Or the film Ms you have used - it is roughly the same narrow area used ever since the M6 from 1986 (white painted spot on the shutter curtain). See this diagram of ttl metering with the "classic" Leica M metering (which should also be in your M10 instruction manual): https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/224881-shooting-black-and-white-m7-camera-settings/?p=2567197 3) I did a test with the M10 "classic" meter against a hand-held Sekonic, and metering a gray card filling the metering area. Both gave the same exposure - a correct value for 18%-reflectance gray (120-ish on the digital 0-255 brightness scale). So the meter calibration is fine, but what it is pointed at has to been given more consideration than most "center-weighted" systems, that read the whole scene, and just give more weight to the center (but not only the center). Edited July 31, 2018 by adan 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted July 31, 2018 Share #14 Posted July 31, 2018 I think the best thing is to use fully manual exposure. That's the only way to get 100% reliable results. I may take a look at the exposure metering (red dot and arrows) in the viewfinder before the first shot, but only as a clue for my manual settings. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesL Posted July 31, 2018 Share #15 Posted July 31, 2018 Here is another re-work on the posted JPG. Just wanted to show that how much post-processing can do, without obvious blown highlights. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/287113-leica-m10-light-meter-underexposing/?do=findComment&comment=3564763'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2018 Share #16 Posted July 31, 2018 I think the best thing is to use fully manual exposure. That's the only way to get 100% reliable results. I may take a look at the exposure metering (red dot and arrows) in the viewfinder before the first shot, but only as a clue for my manual settings. Hear, hear ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2018 Share #17 Posted July 31, 2018 Here is another re-work on the posted JPG. Just wanted to show that how much post-processing can do, without obvious blown highlights. LukeDavidRT.jpg Actually this shows that the example shot was exposed perfectly. Not only was the essential highlight area (the front of the purple blouse) not clipped, the shadows are still well within the dynamic range. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesL Posted July 31, 2018 Share #18 Posted July 31, 2018 Actually this shows that the example shot was exposed perfectly. Not only was the essential highlight area (the front of the purple blouse) not clipped, the shadows are still well within the dynamic range. I used Raw Therapee on the posted JPG (which is tagged Adobe RGB, by the way) - and RT says the front of the blouse is clipped. So does Picture Window Pro. Who knows what the situation is with the DNG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2018 Share #19 Posted July 31, 2018 Well, it should gain one EV value over a JPG. I see what you mean, though, on the original shot. The red channel might be clipped. In that case it is over-exposed. No way to tell without DNG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted August 1, 2018 Share #20 Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) I would be a happy man if the image came out like this, the one thing I hate is blown highlights. Lightening up the shadows can be done now in full freedom to what extent I like it, without noise. If the image had been exposed ‘right’ in your vision, you would have had more noise and no possibility to bring down the highlights on the velvet T-shirt Edited August 1, 2018 by otto.f Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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