andybarton Posted March 27, 2018 Share #221 Posted March 27, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Which means that, on average, a private reserve where guaranteed non-poached 60 year old dead elephants happen along once every 5 years. I don’t know many elephants but what sort of condition is a skin from a 60 year old elephant going to be in? And don’t say wrinkly. The best cow leathers are from stock that are kept well away from barbed wire, spiky hedges or anything else that might damage the beast’s skin. They are not left wandering around the bush for 60 years. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 27, 2018 Posted March 27, 2018 Hi andybarton, Take a look here Luxury Camera Bags by Thorsten von Overgaard. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Martin B Posted March 27, 2018 Share #222 Posted March 27, 2018 I still believe Thorsten could have made a good profit with his name in connection to Leica if he went the opposite route and releasing consumer-based rangefinder-fitting camera bags with nice designs in a price range between $150-400. Not using any kind of animal leather, just inconspicuous and rigid fabric or artificial leather designs with fitting interior bag dividers for the camera gear. Such products already exist, but it is still a niche market he likely would have done well with his name. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 27, 2018 Share #223 Posted March 27, 2018 I have now sent a Tweet to the head honcho at Leica UK who himself Tweeted about a hunter standing over a dead giraffe last autumn. Hopefully he is of the same mind as his customers. Bar one notable exception. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share #224 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) I hope this passes the test - feel free to delete if not. Until twelve months ago it was illegal to import elephant parts into the USA. Thorsten would not have been able to sell his dead elephant bags. The law was changed almost exactly one year ago to permit their sale. Yet another example of the fact that lawful does not always equal moral, ethical and humane. That is an unfortunate reality that operates without respect to lines drawn on maps and globes. Edited March 27, 2018 by Herr Barnack 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 27, 2018 Share #225 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) Do the maths: An Elephant on a private reserve will live up to 60 years, most private reserves (exceptTembe and Addo) Wil have a dozen elephants. Which means that, on average, a private reserve where guaranteed non-poached 60 year old dead elephants happen along once every 5 years. I don’t know many elephants but what sort of condition is a skin from a 60 year old elephant going to be in? And don’t say wrinkly. The best cow leathers are from stock that are kept well away from barbed wire, spiky hedges or anything else that might damage the beast’s skin. They are not left wandering around the bush for 60 years. No proof, smoke and mirrors, and vagueness are all the biggest alarm bells of Greenwashing and they are all here. Any talk of conservation should be totally questioned and considered as greenwash for the gullible until it's proven as true. Where and who are these sanctuaries? How and where do they source their elephants? How is this process of "natural causes" monitored and regulated? and by whom? Is each animal thoroughly tested? and by who? According to this article the sale of the elephant leather is also permitted from culling and there is supposedly little to no documentation to prove it's legitimacy - That is a whole new playing field of concern. Is natural causes just smoke and mirrors? This needs to be proven, certified etc. and as both Jaap and Andy have pointed out - the maths of elephant numbers and age, and the reality of 60 year old elephant skin condition, also potentially don't add up. . Edited March 27, 2018 by Paul J 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted March 27, 2018 Share #226 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) Which means that, on average, a private reserve where guaranteed non-poached 60 year old dead elephants happen along once every 5 years. I don’t know many elephants but what sort of condition is a skin from a 60 year old elephant going to be in? And don’t say wrinkly. The best cow leathers are from stock that are kept well away from barbed wire, spiky hedges or anything else that might damage the beast’s skin. They are not left wandering around the bush for 60 years. So, about 5 bags every 5 years? I'm beginning to think the Leica Service Centre is involved. Sorry, it is not a joking matter, I don't know what is more reprehensible - poaching wildlife in order to feed your family, or feeding the market through feeling the need to adorn yourself in these hideous items. Pete Edited March 27, 2018 by Stealth3kpl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 27, 2018 Share #227 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) A new promotional email from TO has just landed in my Inbox, still containing the wretched elephant bag, Edit - interestingly in the new email he now omits to say that the bag is made of elephant. "Sexy Stuff" it is called. Edited March 27, 2018 by M9reno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NERICSSON Posted March 27, 2018 Share #228 Posted March 27, 2018 Thorsten edited his page as well, removing elephant from the text under the pictures. Different text as well: "Helping preserve endangered species This specific bag is elephant hide from Zimbabwe, which is one of the countries that have a remarkable growth of in population of Luxodonta africana elephants (84,000) within their reserves. The sale of hides from naturally deceased elephants goes into funding the reserves, the security and veterinarians. The reserves features 76 mammal and 650 bird species." 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 27, 2018 Share #229 Posted March 27, 2018 “Sexy stuff” What sort of sick individual calls elephant skin that? 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 27, 2018 Share #230 Posted March 27, 2018 “Sexy stuff” What sort of sick individual calls elephant skin that? Another elephant? 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 27, 2018 Share #231 Posted March 27, 2018 Thorsten edited his page as well, removing elephant from the text under the pictures. A clumsy edit: "'My 24hr Bag in elephant skin with cashmere inside" now reads: "My 24hr Bag in with cashmere inside". Panicked haste? Careless indifference? Hard to make out what's going through his mind. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NERICSSON Posted March 27, 2018 Share #232 Posted March 27, 2018 some sloppy type of damage control? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 27, 2018 Share #233 Posted March 27, 2018 some sloppy type of damage control? Clearly he needs to cal Mr. Wolf. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NP4lrVIpbvo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 27, 2018 Share #234 Posted March 27, 2018 Clearly he needs to cal Mr. Wolf.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NP4lrVIpbvo One of my favourite films. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted March 27, 2018 Share #235 Posted March 27, 2018 I've read this thread and viewed the TO's promotional video. I'm biting my tongue on both counts but it's not working. Regarding the blue crocodile bag, it's as hideous now as it was a few months ago when he posted it in a bag thread here without raising an eyebrow. The Elephant Hide is in poor taste and unethical given the current plight of that or any of our endangered species. In my opinion he has made a poor judgement call on so many levels. I can understand people in this thread getting very perplexed around the core issue of the Elephant Hide, I applaud their defence of this beautiful creature which I've had many encounters with in Thailand where they were used locally as beasts of burden. But I can not condone the attacks on him personally or on his wife, they are beyond the scope of this forum and such comments lower the tone and reputation of both the forum and the members concerned. I urge you to inform, form and keep your own counsel on the individuals concerned, petition privately or as an organised group to dissuade Leica or others from any association with such products .... but above all take a long hard look at yourselves and what you're posting, perhaps what's even hanging in the wardrobe, I'm sure one may find an animal fur of some description from a bygone time ... just saying!. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 27, 2018 Share #236 Posted March 27, 2018 He does have an account here as it happens (can't remember his forum name but it's something anonymous) but doesn't seem to visit often. Much more active on FB.You may try here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/275312-blackstone-in-talks-to-sell-stake-in-leica/?p=3332792 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 27, 2018 Share #237 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) Thorsten edited his page as well, removing elephant from the text under the pictures. Different text as well: "Helping preserve endangered species This specific bag is elephant hide from Zimbabwe, which is one of the countries that have a remarkable growth of in population of Luxodonta africana elephants (84,000) within their reserves. The sale of hides from naturally deceased elephants goes into funding the reserves, the security and veterinarians. The reserves features 76 mammal and 650 bird species." This sounds like typical Greenwash. Just saying "helping preserve endangered species" doesn't prove that it is. This is far too vague to accept. Just saying they are naturally deceased doesn't prove they are, or tell how it is monitored, regulated and/or certified. This is far too vague to accept too. How much do these reserves get from "hide sales" that contribute to the so-called preservation of endangered species? I just googled Elephant Hide sales and it is sells for a measly $45 per square foot (I won't link the source giving them a backlink, google "elephant hide price"). Padding out animal numbers with all mammal and bird species has little relevance and is vague. It seems like smoke and mirror tactics. How many elephants does this sanctuary have? More information is needed. Edited March 27, 2018 by Paul J 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 27, 2018 Share #238 Posted March 27, 2018 [... snip helpful article] perhaps what's even hanging in the wardrobe, I'm sure one may find an animal fur of some description from a bygone time ... just saying!. My mate, Molly, was given a mink coat and fox shawl, and it went right away to be hung in an unheated porch, out of the house. I found the stole to be torn, and I opened up the whole skin. Written with an ink pen where I would expect the seamstresses initials was written in broad strokes, "Sick Sick Sick!" 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bideford Posted March 27, 2018 Share #239 Posted March 27, 2018 Thorsten edited his page as well, removing elephant from the text under the pictures. Different text as well: "Helping preserve endangered species This specific bag is elephant hide from Zimbabwe, which is one of the countries that have a remarkable growth of in population of Luxodonta africana elephants (84,000) within their reserves. The sale of hides from naturally deceased elephants goes into funding the reserves, the security and veterinarians. The reserves features 76 mammal and 650 bird species." https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/grace-mugabe-linked-to-alleged-ivory-smuggling-in-zimbabwe/2018/03/26/f866fca6-30d3-11e8-b6bd-0084a1666987_story.html?utm_term=.fc5cdea558d1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reini Posted March 27, 2018 Share #240 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) Oh, stop (Edit: the words) the "natural" death of the wild animals! In the past year alone, more than 20,000 elephants and 1,000 rhinos were killed in Africa to export ivory and horns, especially to Asia. "Meanwhile, the survival of whole species is endangered: On the African continent, there are only 25,000 rhinos," warned Steiner and spoke of a "dramatic situation". Translated with google. https://www.stern.de/panorama/wissen/natur/bedrohte-tierarten-in-afrika-un-sagt-illegalem-tierhandel-den-kampf-an-3182896.html Edited March 27, 2018 by Reini 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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