jaapv Posted March 14, 2018 Share #21 Posted March 14, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) I wonder it the performance bottleneck is in the EVF or the camera. Does anyone know? Processing power and heat management. Basically the same as the M240. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 14, 2018 Posted March 14, 2018 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Is a better EVF possible for the M10?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pico Posted March 14, 2018 Share #22 Posted March 14, 2018 Processing power and heat management. Basically the same as the M240. That makes sense. Only my opinion: I would be happy with a detachable grip/bottom that could handle the extra processing and power necessary, but I am accustomed to such because I have a motor wind, Leicavit or Abrahamsson Rapid Winder on all my film Leicas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 14, 2018 Share #23 Posted March 14, 2018 (edited) A contradiction in terms. If it’s the best rangefinder why do you need an EVF? Can’t make up your mind which one you want? [...] I fail to see any contradiction here. I don't want another mirrorless camera i have three of them already. What i want is a rangefinder with a decent accessory EVF. The same way as i wanted my film Ms with a decent Leicameter. Why should any accessory, what's more an expensive one, be sluggish on a Leica camera? Edited March 14, 2018 by lct 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted March 14, 2018 Share #24 Posted March 14, 2018 I fail to see any contradiction here. I don't want another mirrorless camera i have three of them already. What i want is a rangefinder with a decent accessory EVF. The same way as i wanted my film Ms with a decent Leicameter. Why should any accessory, what's more an expensive one, be sluggish on a Leica camera? It IS a decent accessory EVF. On an M rangefinder body it is what it is. You get to take it or leave it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasauge Posted March 14, 2018 Share #25 Posted March 14, 2018 The EVF works as a tool steering all the opportunities offered in live view mode. Nothing else imagination rests our job OVF leads to sharp pics anyway (MP, MM1, M10) Just my two cents 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 15, 2018 Share #26 Posted March 15, 2018 It IS a decent accessory EVF. On an M rangefinder body it is what it is. You get to take it or leave it. It is not to me. Even my little Lx100 does better. Reason why i left the M10 mainly. YMMV. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted March 15, 2018 Share #27 Posted March 15, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good EVF is subjective term. To me good EVF is EVF which has zero refresh rate. But for those who needs zoom in to focus it is irrelevant. While for me as person who pans, it means what EVF FW must have faster than real time refresh rate. As video guy, I could tell you what prediction algorithms already exists for this part, but it still can't compensate delay in the signal path. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 15, 2018 Share #28 Posted March 15, 2018 It is not to me. Even my little Lx100 does better. Reason why i left the M10 mainly. YMMV. Reasonable. Nobody should buy a superb OVF camera if the EVF is more important. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 15, 2018 Share #29 Posted March 15, 2018 Reasonable. Nobody should buy a superb OVF camera if the EVF is more important. Don't count me in please. The most important thing in an RF is the RF to me. But when you have one or several RFs already you (at least me) don't want to get another one if it is crippled by sluggish accessories. Leica did it once with the M240 already. I kept it for its RF but now it is enough. My next Leica RF will be a modern camera or won't be. YMMV. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 15, 2018 Share #30 Posted March 15, 2018 In my view, an accessory is good enough if it does the job it is meant to do, i.e.focusing and framing of longer lenses, wideangle lenses and macro. That the M240 already did. If it becomes a need to be as functional and esthetically pleasing as a dedicated camera, the time is there to get a dedicated camera. The same could be said since the first Visoflex, over sixty years ago. Nobody could have contemplated getting rid of his M4 because the Visoflex 3 could not compare to a Spotmatic. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 15, 2018 Share #31 Posted March 15, 2018 In my view, an accessory is good enough if it does the job it is meant to do, i.e.focusing and framing of longer lenses, wideangle lenses and macro. That the M240 already did. If it becomes a need to be as functional and esthetically pleasing as a dedicated camera, the time is there to get a dedicated camera. The same could be said since the first Visoflex, over sixty years ago. Nobody could have contemplated getting rid of his M4 because the Visoflex 3 could not compare to a Spotmatic. According to Leica itself, the current Visoflex is a « Technical Equipment » which is « built to fulfill all creative wishes and to be absolutely reliable, robust and top-performing under any circumstance ». If your benchmark for « top-performing » is the old optical Visoflex i agree 100% with you . Just kidding. I am not here to rain on others parade of course. If i had no digital rangefinder i would hesitate between the M10 or a s/h M240 pending the M11 most probably. Since i have an M240 already, it will be the M11 or no more rangefinder for me but again YMMV. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 15, 2018 Share #32 Posted March 15, 2018 built to fulfill all creative wishes and to be absolutely reliable, robust and top-performing under any circumstance » Yes, that is wonderfully said. I'll put Leica's phrase in my CV... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 15, 2018 Share #33 Posted March 15, 2018 According to Leica itself, the current Visoflex is a « Technical Equipment » which is « built to fulfill all creative wishes and to be absolutely reliable, robust and top-performing under any circumstance ». If your benchmark for « top-performing » is the old optical Visoflex i agree 100% with you . Just kidding. I am not here to rain on others parade of course. If i had no digital rangefinder i would hesitate between the M10 or a s/h M240 pending the M11 most probably. Since i have an M240 already, it will be the M11 or no more rangefinder for me but again YMMV. No twisting; I was comparing the M4 + Visoflex 3 to the Spotmatic and the M10 + Visoflex 20 to the SL Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted March 15, 2018 Share #34 Posted March 15, 2018 I guess I see both sides. I use the EVF on the 240 and 10 quite a bit for final framing and exposure confirmation. I certainly never pan using EVF and rarely, if ever, focus with it (135 excepted) so I don't typically spend enough time viewing through it to be annoyed by its flaws one way or the other. If I did, I'm sure my grumbles would be a bit louder. To be honest, I find the smaller viewport and odd color casts on exhibit in the Q EVF to be at least as distracting. It has taken some time for this back and forth between finders to become second nature, and certainly it would be nice for static scenes if the EVF implementation would stand a bit more on its own, but even if the EVF were state of the art, I doubt my approach would change much as I find the combination to be complimentary to each other. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted March 16, 2018 Share #35 Posted March 16, 2018 No twisting; I was comparing the M4 + Visoflex 3 to the Spotmatic and the M10 + Visoflex 20 to the SL Thanks for this observation, Jaap. I was thinking the same thing. Most folks here never had to use the Visoflex II or III, let alone the earlier mirror reflex housings. As a kid, I cut my teeth on my dad's M3, and he did have a Viso II, but what a PITA that was. When he got a Leicaflex SL, what a revelation that was! I used my Black SL all through high school, and forgot about the M. I was hooked on how easy it was to use with super wides and long lenses. I returned to the M with a nice Black Chrome M4 in college. Of course I ran the gamut with the R4, R5, R6 and R7. The M6 changed everything with its wonderful integrated metering. Fast forward to the M9 and now the M10. More than happy with the EVF for occasional use. Miles ahead of the original Visoflex! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted March 19, 2018 Share #36 Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) I bought the Visoflex 20 specifically for composing images with the gorgeous but rather challenging 10 mm Hyper Wide Heliar. LV at arm‘s length is not for me. I appreciate being able to center/straighten/control leading lines w/o tripod & level. I can play around wysiwyg with unusual angulations. Extreme ultra-wide does not lend itself to very dynamic scenes imho, thus the refresh rate is not a major issue for me, but rather a minor nuisance. However I can understand that it exasperates people with different needs. The Viso is a bit clumsy, yet smaller than the optical 10 mm accessory, which was unavailable at the store the day I bought the Heliar. Thus I ended up with the Viso a bit by chance and, in hindsight, I am very happy that I did. This focal length is much easier (less difficult) to master with an EVF. The viewfinder articulation is extremely helpful when exploring unusual angles, yet clicks down solidly enough for general use. I prefer the eye relief of an excellent OVF for everything beyond and including 28 mm. I always carry a second body for the other lens(es) because I would not want to use the Viso for a full day of shooting due to the fatigue it seems to cause in my visual apparatus. If my eyesight should ever detoriate, I could also use the Viso to focus tele lenses, but then I might move away from rangefinder cameras for regular shooting. To cut a longish rant short, for me the Viso 20 does what I personally need it to do, but it very much fails me to wax enthusiastic. I would not mind it being improved, but my wish list for Leica would contain numerous items prior to that. Edited March 19, 2018 by schattenundlicht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas fry Posted March 20, 2018 Share #37 Posted March 20, 2018 I have an M9 so no EVF for me anyway. When I got the lens (secondhand) the seller wasn't selling his 21mm viewfinder and I never got round to buying one. That was about 9 years ago and now I'm used to having no framelines for that lens. So yes, no EVF, no OFV. Same here, I use the 21mm Super Elmar M frequently, and Im getting good at guessing the width and height of the image through the OVF, if its on a tripod then the live view is good for a quick reference for vertical walls etc, but otherwise, guessing works for me Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hteasley Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share #38 Posted March 27, 2018 So it appears no one is certain if it's possible to get a better EVF for the M10. I should have noted in my original ask that, part of why I wonder is that the Visoflex 20 came out well before the M10: it came out with the T. So it's quite a bit older than the M10, and the M10 might very well have the horsepower to drive something better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2018 Share #39 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) Same here, I use the 21mm Super Elmar M frequently, and Im getting good at guessing the width and height of the image through the OVF, if its on a tripod then the live view is good for a quick reference for vertical walls etc, but otherwise, guessing works for m Me too, with a wide like the 24 I can easily guess where the frame will end up, likewise with the 21mm too to some extent.....but I also like to use a clip-on finder, ( generally the VC finders that are really nice, compact and very well made ). However I do have the 020 EVF and it's ok for what it is, certainly better than the one for the 240 that I also own. It's wides that I need a finder for, very rarely using FL's over 50mm and then only to 75mm max' so no EVF needed there for me. I do like the way that both EVF's tip up though....that's a handy feature. Again as I've said more than once on this forum I can't understand why Leica stopped at 28mm as the widest view for the OVF, it should show 24mm at the very least and 21mm too would be great. If they did an a'la-carte option for that I'd be all over it.......Also a .52 finder for the M10 too please! So it appears no one is certain if it's possible to get a better EVF for the M10. I should have noted in my original ask that, part of why I wonder is that the Visoflex 20 came out well before the M10: it came out with the T. So it's quite a bit older than the M10, and the M10 might very well have the horsepower to drive something better. Probably expediency. Leica had it "on the shelf" and available, maybe they were too lazy to make something better or maybe the financial returns of developing a new one didn't appear to be worth the cost when put against the probable sale numbers. Edited March 27, 2018 by petermullett Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hteasley Posted March 31, 2018 Author Share #40 Posted March 31, 2018 Probably expediency. Leica had it "on the shelf" and available, maybe they were too lazy to make something better or maybe the financial returns of developing a new one didn't appear to be worth the cost when put against the probable sale numbers. That they did it is not an issue, or confusing. I was happy, as I had a Visoflex 020 already, for my T, so yay. Just wondering if they can make a Visoflex 040 with better resolution and refresh. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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