Jon Pop Posted August 18, 2017 Share #1 Posted August 18, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) There's been some bits and pieces of discussions on this in the past, imbedded into threads on the RF patch or frameline accuracy compared to 0.72 etc, however, I wanted to start a discussion on this in the hopes it could lead to a firmware update. I have a new M10 which I like more than my MP240 in most respects except for the fact that the frameline brightness seems to vary without reason, and is 'slow' to start up at times. I find this extremely annoying - at times it's been dimmer without reason than my older Leicas. I don't mind that they removed the colour option of the 240 (red or white...though I really liked red), but I'm not sure the rationale for whatever system they employed in the M10...because whatever it is, it doesn't work well, at all. And no, my finger isn't accidentally blocking any sensors or windows - ever. The whole point of digital framelines (while having the drawback of only being visible when power was on) was to free us from variations due to light gathering etc. Having a 'variable brightness of framelines according to external brightness' that actually reacts inappropriately in moving from bright to dark, or powering up, etc., is a complete waste of time and actually more important to me than a bit more ISO or dynamic range, since it directly affects what I'm seeing when I even put the camera to my eye. Delighted with the M10 otherwise, but Leica, please fix this if at all possible. Anyone else with me on this one...or better yet, have any tips or settings I'm unaware of (besides of course suggesting my finger is in the way...). Jon Pop. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 18, 2017 Posted August 18, 2017 Hi Jon Pop, Take a look here M10 Frameline Brightness - Firmware. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jdlaing Posted August 18, 2017 Share #2 Posted August 18, 2017 John, They're not digital framelines yet. They are still metal masks with slots that a light source shines through. In this case an LED provides the light instead of a little window and a mirror. I'm not sure if the LED light bulb and be made to be variable in that small of a size. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 18, 2017 Share #3 Posted August 18, 2017 Still pretty much like this... https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/66999-anatomy-of-the-leica-m8-framelines/ Just lit differently, not digitally projected. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted August 18, 2017 Share #4 Posted August 18, 2017 I have not noted any changes in the intensity of the frame lines. You may have a defective wiring issue... Back to Wetzlar? Albert Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscrew Posted August 18, 2017 Share #5 Posted August 18, 2017 I have not noted any changes in the intensity of the frame lines. You may have a defective wiring issue... Back to Wetzlar? Albert By the instruction manual (page 211 in my pdf copy) there is such function: Bright-line frames for 50mm and 75mm1 (example) 1 With automatic brightness control adjusted to the ambient brightness. This automatic control is not available for Leica M lenses with viewfinder attachments, since they cover the brightness sensor 5 which supplies the information required for their operation. In such cases the frame and displays always maintain a constant brightness. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdemeyer Posted August 19, 2017 Share #6 Posted August 19, 2017 The fact that people don't notice them changing brightnesss suggests to me that the basic algorithm is pretty good. Have to say I have also not noticed any issues with this... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Black Posted August 19, 2017 Share #7 Posted August 19, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Don't notice? Heck, mine practically vanish. The frame lines on my M-246 are at least twice as bright, and very visible whether in dim light or bright light. Maybe there is some sample variation from one M10 to another...?... Whatever the case, I just know mine are so dim that sometimes I wonder if the camera is turned-on. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdemeyer Posted August 19, 2017 Share #8 Posted August 19, 2017 Certainly never been an issue with mine... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W Posted August 19, 2017 Share #9 Posted August 19, 2017 I guess I have not really paid much attention to the brightness of the frame lines. I have been an M user for so long that I do not pay much attention to them. I am more focused (sorry) on my focusing. The older one gets, the harder it gets. No jokes here.....! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_1987 Posted August 24, 2017 Share #10 Posted August 24, 2017 I find auto brightness annoying too. Wish to see an option to turn it off in new firmware 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
screwmount Posted August 24, 2017 Share #11 Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) There's been some bits and pieces of discussions on this in the past, imbedded into threads on the RF patch or frameline accuracy compared to 0.72 etc, however, I wanted to start a discussion on this in the hopes it could lead to a firmware update. I have a new M10 which I like more than my MP240 in most respects except for the fact that the frameline brightness seems to vary without reason, and is 'slow' to start up at times. I find this extremely annoying - at times it's been dimmer without reason than my older Leicas. I don't mind that they removed the colour option of the 240 (red or white...though I really liked red), but I'm not sure the rationale for whatever system they employed in the M10...because whatever it is, it doesn't work well, at all. And no, my finger isn't accidentally blocking any sensors or windows - ever. The whole point of digital framelines (while having the drawback of only being visible when power was on) was to free us from variations due to light gathering etc. Having a 'variable brightness of framelines according to external brightness' that actually reacts inappropriately in moving from bright to dark, or powering up, etc., is a complete waste of time and actually more important to me than a bit more ISO or dynamic range, since it directly affects what I'm seeing when I even put the camera to my eye. Delighted with the M10 otherwise, but Leica, please fix this if at all possible. Anyone else with me on this one...or better yet, have any tips or settings I'm unaware of (besides of course suggesting my finger is in the way...). Jon Pop. There are no digital frame lines.The just use a LED instead of available light.... ....no high tech @all same ol'shit as usual Edited August 24, 2017 by screwmount Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abram Posted November 24, 2017 Share #12 Posted November 24, 2017 Has there been any further development on this? I'm experiencing the same annoyance with my new M10. In most situations the framelines are perfect and adequately bright for the situation, however there are random occasions where the framelines just dim suddenly and all but vanish completely making them essentially unusable. I've only so far had it happen indoors in medium to low light situations. I wish they would just always stay bright, seems kind of bizarre why they don't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reciprocity Posted November 25, 2017 Share #13 Posted November 25, 2017 My M240 was a lot better in this regard and even better yet in low light with the red frame line option. With the M240 they adjusted very quickly to changing conditions and now with the M10 they hesitate and are not always the ideal brightness. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted November 25, 2017 Share #14 Posted November 25, 2017 I wish they would just always stay bright, seems kind of bizarre why they don't. Can you put a tiny bit of tape over the sensor? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanetomlane Posted November 26, 2017 Share #15 Posted November 26, 2017 There's been some bits and pieces of discussions on this in the past, imbedded into threads on the RF patch or frameline accuracy compared to 0.72 etc, however, I wanted to start a discussion on this in the hopes it could lead to a firmware update. I have a new M10 which I like more than my MP240 in most respects except for the fact that the frameline brightness seems to vary without reason, and is 'slow' to start up at times. I find this extremely annoying - at times it's been dimmer without reason than my older Leicas. I don't mind that they removed the colour option of the 240 (red or white...though I really liked red), but I'm not sure the rationale for whatever system they employed in the M10...because whatever it is, it doesn't work well, at all. And no, my finger isn't accidentally blocking any sensors or windows - ever. The whole point of digital framelines (while having the drawback of only being visible when power was on) was to free us from variations due to light gathering etc. Having a 'variable brightness of framelines according to external brightness' that actually reacts inappropriately in moving from bright to dark, or powering up, etc., is a complete waste of time and actually more important to me than a bit more ISO or dynamic range, since it directly affects what I'm seeing when I even put the camera to my eye. Delighted with the M10 otherwise, but Leica, please fix this if at all possible. Anyone else with me on this one...or better yet, have any tips or settings I'm unaware of (besides of course suggesting my finger is in the way...). Jon Pop. So pleased you brought this subject up as I feel exactly the same. The only thing I'm disappointed with on the M10 is the clearness of the frame lines. I had a M240 before trading it in for the M10 and still have the M246 Monochrom. I set both of these cameras to show Red frame lines which, in my opinion are much clearer than on the M10, especially in bright light. I wouldn't image that Leica would be able to change the colour by upgrading the firmware but hopefully they may be able to increase the brightness. Regards, Tom 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyTempo Posted November 27, 2017 Share #16 Posted November 27, 2017 I have experienced the same, but only in low light conditions. It's certainly annoying, an optional setting to have a constant brightness (maybe adjustable) would be welcome. Shouldn't be too hard to implement... Cheers, Markus 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted November 27, 2017 Share #17 Posted November 27, 2017 (edited) I have experienced the same, but only in low light conditions. It's certainly annoying, an optional setting to have a constant brightness (maybe adjustable) would be welcome. Shouldn't be too hard to implement... Cheers, Markus See post #312 to 315, here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268492-m10-fw-requestsbug-reports/page-16 OVF = EVF in Leica's manual and different language Try MENU EVF brightness ... Edited November 27, 2017 by a.noctilux 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Pop Posted November 29, 2017 Author Share #18 Posted November 29, 2017 I've tried that - I cycled through all of the settings under EVF brightness on the menu, from Auto, High, Medium High, etc. - and didn't notice any difference, at all (not even a slight difference). I've put my finger over the little sensor window when the setting is at Auto, and also there has been zero difference. I have had the suggestion to do a reset of the camera though and will try that. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted October 7, 2024 Share #19 Posted October 7, 2024 On 11/29/2017 at 12:39 PM, Jon Pop said: I've tried that - I cycled through all of the settings under EVF brightness on the menu, from Auto, High, Medium High, etc. - and didn't notice any difference, at all (not even a slight difference). I've put my finger over the little sensor window when the setting is at Auto, and also there has been zero difference. I have had the suggestion to do a reset of the camera though and will try that. I have the stated problems top Mech top light in dim situation. Michael top dom in light circumstances. I have the M10r.sorry Safari fxxcks up the txt It annoys me so much that I feel it distracts In both extreme situations I have a hard time getting the right focus. I never had that with a previous m-camera. So - reset? I’ll try. but first get that stupid browser understanding english and not autocorrect to another native one in ze mobile 😂 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted October 7, 2024 Share #20 Posted October 7, 2024 (edited) Same problem as Jon Pop formulated here. OK. To restate. In my M10-R I am often distracted and ultimately annoyed by sometimes too bright (e.g. when in a museum, dark space with ample lit objects ) versus too dim (in broad daylight this can happen). I found nothing in the manual that can help me. In both cases it can be very hard for me to SEE the RF correctness, that is, to verify do they overlap? It has led- after some two years of use of the M10 - to a a feeling that this must be improved. In my M240-P I had the best experience in M-camera's. So why is a costly successor worse? I had bnever even thought this would happen in this age of smart industrial design. And Leica has laways been a smart company in this respect, they know that is Das Wesentliche. Our happiness. But I can't find an option how to dim the frameline; that is make it less enthousiastic, because in the other case I don't need the dimmness. - Note it is my feeling, I am not an engineer who will poke around with a optical recording devices to really control what I say (the Solms lab is for that). It is so bad that I am looking to a newer version M now (I can't without a showdown buy an M240 again . . .). Would the Leica RedDot shop or Leica service centre be able to help me get rid of either my dumbness or the too little/much enlightenment? Is it in any way a valid question to ask? Edited October 7, 2024 by Alberti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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