Code Name "Clooney"

[wildlightphoto]

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Update

 

https://leicarumors.com/2017/11/19/leica-cl-mirrorless-camera-and-elmarit-tl-18mm-f2-8-asph-lens-to-be-announced-on-november-21st.aspx/

 

 

Meh.

[Guest VVJ]

In the interview with Kaltner in the beginning of the year he said that the TL would turn into a mobile device.

 

The question I have is why that didn't happen with the TL2.  They had 3 years to execute that vision but the TL2 has AFAIK literally nothing new that points in that direction.

 

Perhaps Leica initially had a vision for the T but the partnership with Huawei put that on hold?

 

I really believe that Leica does not know very well where to go with the TL-line.  They stuck with its initial design principles which is admirable but at the same time they also might have killed it...

 

Leica APS-C does not have the user base of Fuji and I would be very surprised if it was large enough to support both TL and CL lines longterm.  But perhaps I am wrong or perhaps Leica can grow  the user base.  

[IkarusJohn]

So, your thoughts are that the 2 systems can each generate enough interest with the public to both survive; that there will be enough different buyers for each; that the improvements (as has been speculated here - superior to the TL current evf, and extremely fast AF) will not 'kill off' the TL2 system?  (Obviously, Leica thinks that both can survive).

 

It is a simple question . . . and if there is "more to this release than another APS-C camera and lens" what impact might you imagine it would have on the existing TL2?  From the tone of your reply, it would seem you do not think it will be a major issue for the TL2.  I'm not so sure that I agree with you, but we shall soon see.

 

Yes (I think).

 

The issue is not one product competing against the other, but overall sales of the L mount system.  This is quite different from the X series and the Q, as they are stand alone products.  These aren't.

 

As for other products, I was referring to something (anything) other than an APS-C camera.  A new lens (the rumoured 35 or 75 Noctilux), and upgrade to the S Series, or a new M variant (Monochrom?).  Anything but this rather unfortunate looking parts bin filler (I know, I know, I'll get my coat).

Edited November 20, 2017 by IkarusJohn

[Ecaton]

Tom,

 

I will almost certainly get the new CL and the new TL-18mm lens.

 

My reasons are simple.  I passionately hate the Visoflex and 28mm eq is one of my favorite focal lengths.

 

With that out of the way, do I believe that forum members are asking for too much?  No, I don't...  On the contrary I find they are quite soft and apologizing on Leica.

 

Leica has proven with the Q and the SL cameras that they can make excellent easy and fast AF cameras and it is about time they start doing it for the APS-C format as well.

 

And although the TL2 is an improvement over the T it is not the camera it could and should have been...

 

Also, with a price tag of $3K the CL better be good.  That is more than 3 times the Fuji X-E3 and very close to the Sony a7rIII....

 

And there is nothing the CL does that the X-E3 doesn't do, so it better deliver on what it does do...

 

Best, Joris.

 

But the X-E3 does a few things the CL won't do, courtesy to its X-trans sensor. Such as e.g. creating perceptions of very good high iso performance at the expense of loss of details. Pleasing subjects with waxy skin tones at higher iso or under more demanding lighting conditions. Ruining landscape shots with artifacts (worms). Not mating well with m-glass. Not offering a mechanical shutter past +1/4000. 

[mmanda]

Yes (I think).

 

The issue is not one product competing against the other, but overall sales of the L mount system.  This is quite different from the X series and the Q, as they are stand alone products.  These aren't.

 

As for other products, I was referring to something (anything) other than an APS-C camera.  A new lens (the rumoured 35 or 75 Noctilux), and upgrade to the S Series, or a new M variant (Monochrom?).  Anything but this rather unfortunate looking parts bin filler (I know, I know, I'll get my coat).

 

Will depend on the cost to buy into a CL I think. If it is priced a bit silly over the TL2, then the leap to buy one will be too great for some keeping the TL2 alive.

 

Also, remember the TL2 advert and marketing strategy with the fashion shoot they released?  I wonder how the CL will be marketed and who too?

[miro]

Oskar's Legacy .

This is your fathers' TL .

[swifty]

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It seems that a great EVF (both in terms of resolution and refresh rate) is intimately tied to the readout speed of the sensor.

And the sensor readout has further implications on contrast detect AF speeds.

Leica rumors is reporting that the CL will use the same sensor as the TL2 so if true, can one guestimate whether it'll support EVF high refresh rates of 120fps like on the Panasonic G9.
They both will do 20FPS at full resolution (20MP vs 24MP for G9 vs TL2) but the G9 wins on video, capable of 4K at 60P and Full HD at 180FPS.

Since the EVF is essentially a video feed from the sensor, it might be the video specs that is the determinant.

The TL2 might not have enough bandwidth to drive external EVFs at these high specs even if the sensor was capable but maybe internally it might be possible with an integrated EVF, hence the CL.

[vikasmg]

I suspect there will be an initial flood of TL2s hit the market, causing prices to take a big hit.

 

Of course, this begs the question: is the TL2 going to still appeal to new customers? I suppose the price savings (without buying the visoflex 020) might still have some appeal, but what is the TL2's future?

 

And/or can Leica come up with a more improved EVF and can software updates make AF even faster?

 

Rob

I suspect there will be a decent market for a small discount. But we shall see. I already have a request from a colleague to sell him my TL2 if I buy the new camera.

 

I want to hold it and try it out before committing anything. Dec 6th evening in Singapore.

 

- Vikas

[Chaemono]

I suspect there will be a decent market for a small discount. But we shall see. I already have a request from a colleague to sell him my TL2 if I buy the new camera.

 

I want to hold it and try it out before committing anything. Dec 6th evening in Singapore.

 

- Vikas

Just curious, does your colleague own a Leica camera already? There is actually a case to be made that the CL makes the TL more viable now even if it seems counterintuitive at first. It may allow Leica to price it more competitively (by lowering component prices, for example) to attract new users who are looking for this kind of shooting experience but who don’t want to compromise on IQ. A TL offers a modern, touch screen user interface that appeals to a new generation of photographers, the cellphone shooters. Edited November 20, 2017 by Chaemono

[scott kirkpatrick]

Leicarumors reports a European price, and its equivalent in $$.  Has anyone seen a US price?

[earleygallery]

superior to the TL current evf, and extremely fast AF) will not 'kill off' the TL2 system?  (Obviously, Leica thinks that both can survive).

 

Why should the new camera have extremely fast AF? Surely Leica would want that for all models? I suspect AF performance will be identical.

[frame-it]

Leica imagines their other models also have "extremely fast AF"...marketing blah

 

nice but nowhere near nikon / canon / olympus or even sony A6xxx

 

but whatever...

 

will know tomorrow.

 

 

 

Why should the new camera have extremely fast AF? Surely Leica would want that for all models? I suspect AF performance will be identical.

[ropo54]

Why should the new camera have extremely fast AF? Surely Leica would want that for all models? I suspect AF performance will be identical.

 

Why?  

 

One, because it is doable.

 

Two, because it is one of the rumors concerning the CL's performance from another poster on this site. 

 

I would think that Leica would want this for all of their cameras and AF is quite good on the SL and Q.  Just as I would think that they might want an excellent EVF.

 

Would you not be more inclined to buy into the CL if it were to have those features?

Edited November 20, 2017 by ropo54

[tritentrue]

  Just as I would think that they might want an excellent EVF.

 

Rob, is your criticism of the Visoflex 020 based on use with the T or with the TL2?  If it's with the T, you might be pleasantly surprised to try manual focus--especially the two levels of focus magnification--with the VIsoflex on the TL2.  I don't know if it's because of the sensor difference or some other improvement, but it gives a much better view when paired with the TL2.

[ropo54]

Rob, is your criticism of the Visoflex 020 based on use with the T or with the TL2?  If it's with the T, you might be pleasantly surprised to try manual focus--especially the two levels of focus magnification--with the VIsoflex on the TL2.  I don't know if it's because of the sensor difference or some other improvement, but it gives a much better view when paired with the TL2.

 

Rob,

 

I have used the Visoflex with both. I just have much better success with the SL 601, particularly when shooting with the Noctilux and R80 1.4. Many more misses for me with wide open shots. (I will pay more attention to any differences between the TL2 and T).

 

(Certainly, the Visoflex is a great improvement over the EVF which was available for the X2, X Vario, X113 and earlier M versions).

 

Rob

Edited November 20, 2017 by ropo54

[dkCambridgeshire]

Too many CL suppositions and suspicions being documented by those whose wishful thinking is getting the better of them … but this invariably happens whenever a new Leica model is introduced … and as usual, it's those who've never used or owned a modern digital Leica camera who seem to have the most dogmatic opinions.

 

dunk 

Edited November 20, 2017 by dkCambridgeshire

[tritentrue]

I just have much better success with the SL 601, particularly when shooting with the Noctilux and R80 1.4. 

 

Rob, that probably explains why our perspectives differ.   Rather than short, ultrafast lenses, as you mention, all of my manual focusing with the Visoflex is done with long, slow telephotos--where the SL failed me in bright sunlight.

 

Tomorrow I'll try focusing the 35TL wide open manually and maybe I'll get a better understanding of your experience with the Visoflex.

[ropo54]

Too many CL suppositions and suspicions being documented by those whose wishful thinking is getting the better of them … but this invariably happens whenever a new Leica model is introduced … and as usual, it's those who've never used or owned a modern digital Leica camera who seem to have the most dogmatic opinions.

 

dunk 

 

For sure, lots of suppositions. Anticipation is always exciting.

 

I am hoping the CL improves on the TL2; if not, I will still be quite contented with the TL2.  

 

Rhetorically: wishful thinking, sure, why not?  

 

Rob

Edited November 20, 2017 by ropo54

[dkCambridgeshire]

For sure, lots of suppositions. Anticipation is always exciting.

 

I am hoping the CL improves on the TL2; if not, I will still be quite contented with the TL2.  

 

Rhetorically: wishful thinking, sure, why not?  

 

Rob

 

 

My comments were addressed mainly at those with the usual predictable negative attitudes towards modern digital Leica cameras. 

 

dunk 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[scott kirkpatrick]

Leicarumors reports a European price, and its equivalent in $$.  Has anyone seen a US price?

I looked back only a week, and at that time the leak-price was $2500 <== the price of a TL2 plus the price of a Visoflex 020.  But inflation has taken its toll.