M10 Black & White

[jaapv]

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How could one show images OOC? Only by showing camera JPGs. Which might show the settings chosen by the in-camera processing, but would still tell us nothing about the relative quality.

OOC images as objective comparison is a myth.

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[M11 for me]

No problem. I made myself not clear maybe: The pics are just NOT ooc which is fully ok. But as they definitely went through pp I just asked to align them in a way that they look really alike. Here we should have guessed which photo is from which camera . . . Why not fully align them first and then ask the question about which is which. And I then I wondered in my post above if maybe the alignement did not work at all. If so then we could conclude that one camera is more suited for b&w than the other.

 

Does that make sense?

[erl]

My view is that the difference is so much hair splitting that it should definitely not be used to choose one camera over the other, if that was the objective.

[mhicks]

I'm a simpleton, and certainly no photographer. But to me, after seeing some of the b&w pics here and on other websites taken by a person using an M10, I see absolutely no reason to buy the MM anymore.

[erl]

IMO, without the experience of having an MM, I think one would need to be a totally dedicated B&W photographer who also works a lot in very low light. Those critereia may be convincing to own an MM, but that is speculation on my part.

 

For me, the M10 is certainly a high contender, even under the circumstances I have just outlined. I do use an M10 in such difficult parameters and still am not pulled convincingly to an MM, but would love to try one.

[a.noctilux]

I appreciate Monochrom for what it is and high ISO use when I need.

 

So after some days of M10 owner, I tried out the "M10 monochrom".

 

Scene almost dark ...to be fair to Monochrom 10 k ISO

100% center crop from much larger image: M10 + Elmarit-M 21mm Asph. wide open at 10 000 ISO

 

.

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For me not bad in "grain" and black is deep.

I would use that 10 000 ISO as the highest acceptable image.

 

At 3200 ISO, it's very nice and smooth with no "grain" to talk about.

 

Tried 25 000 and 50k ISO also but for me not "acceptable result".

[erl]

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A.noctilux, I pretty much concur with your observations, except there are times when I could/would benefit from moving to higher ISO, dependent on the light qulity. ie. contrast range, which would work well much higher.

 

An M10 coupled with a Noctilux, the lower light regions become fascinatingly more accessible..

[Tailwagger]

Those Tigres were lovely cars, The sound of that flat air-cooled twin boxer was very distinctive. They stick ther tongue out, don't they?

Indeed. Its possibly the cutest car, in a good way, ever made.  Reminds me of a really happy puppy dog. 

[tappan]

Here are two photos from my M10p,  that  was set to DNG and  "JPG monochrome".
These were processed in Lightroom from the JPG's.
Mark

By  the way, this is me in a self portrait, and our (just turned) 3 yr old son Leo.

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[250swb]

On 7/16/2017 at 1:10 PM, erl said:

IMO, without the experience of having an MM, I think one would need to be a totally dedicated B&W photographer who also works a lot in very low light. Those critereia may be convincing to own an MM, but that is speculation on my part.

 

 

I get the low light part, but after having owned the previous two Monochrom's I don't buy the idea anymore that the Monochrom is for dedicated B&W photographers. 

Look at it this way, you have a B&W film in your camera and what does a dedicated (serious, or whatever, a state above being happy with any old outcome) B&W photographer do, yes, they look at the colour (and contrast) in the scene. They look at how they want to render that colour in B&W as a tone of grey, so they do the obvious things, use a green filter to lighten leaves and grass, or a red to darken a blue sky and accentuate the clouds, a yellow to add contrast or bring out shadow detail. That is being dedicated. Colour is important in B&W photography, but the Monchrom doesn't allow the photographer to use colour, well except only in a very limited way, it responds weakly to using filters on the lens.

So it's a camera for the 'that's good enough' B&W photographer, happy to get a result in B&W and to ignore the refinements of working with B&W. You remember when the first Monochrom was released and the default files were flat and boring to look at, but people were uncritically cooing over them as if discovering B&W for the first time, they needed a nudge to increase the contrast a bit and take charge of the camera. The current Monochrom is a vast improvement on that, but the M10 gives the B&W photographer everything a B&W photographer needs, the ability to capture colour and through colour work the tonal range in the virtual darkroom of post processing.

[erl]

15 hours ago, 250swb said:

I get the low light part, but after having owned the previous two Monochrom's I don't buy the idea anymore that the Monochrom is for dedicated B&W photographers. 

Look at it this way, you have a B&W film in your camera and what does a dedicated (serious, or whatever, a state above being happy with any old outcome) B&W photographer do, yes, they look at the colour (and contrast) in the scene. They look at how they want to render that colour in B&W as a tone of grey, so they do the obvious things, use a green filter to lighten leaves and grass, or a red to da rken a blue sky and accentuate the clouds, a yellow to add contrast or bring out shadow detail. That is being dedicated. Colour is important in B&W photography, but the Monchrom doesn't allow the photographer to use colour, well except only in a very limited way, it responds weakly to using filters on the lens.

So it's a camera for the 'that's good enough' B&W photographer, happy to get a result in B&W and to ignore the refinements of working with B&W. You remember when the first Monochrom was released and the default files were flat and boring to look at, but people were uncritically cooing over them as if discovering B&W for the first time, they needed a nudge to increase the contrast a bit and take charge of the camera. The current Monochrom is a vast improvement on that, but the M10 gives the B&W photographer everything a B&W photographer needs, the ability to capture colour and through colour work the tonal range in the virtual darkroom of post processing.

Steve, your argument/explanation is convincing. I keep lusting after a Monochrom because I borrowed one for a few days, way back in 2014 and produced one of my best pics with it. Yes, I know, there many other variables. My nagging desire revolves around what 'appears' to be a greater clarity of Monochrom images compared to M9/10 images. Today, as a cure to lockdown boredom, I have shot a series of B&W images  on my M10 set to Monochrom at all marked ISO settings, using a tripod, to see where the image quality goes with increasing ISO. Up to 1600 I consider the quality to be fine. At 3200 apparent grain/noise kicks in and at 6400 it is noticeable, but if needed to capture an image, it is useable.

Immediately below is the MM image shot @ 400ISO at night. It was at night looking through a chef's kitchen window overlooking a lane, hence the graffiti.

Following that is the M10 pic, just shot, at the same ISO, but different subject obviously.

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[erl]

Hmmm! My conversion of the MM DNG file to jpeg for the web seems to be terrible. That image actually makes a superb A2 print, which is framed in a friend's kitchen.

[erl]

Here is part of the M10  series I just shot showing  approx 100% crop of each image. It can be seen tyhat the 1600 is quite smoothish, 3200 is OK and 6400 is useable if you don't mind the appearance of grain. This, I think, is where the MM probably excells.

A personal judgment here is always the decider.

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Edited May 1, 2020 by erl
corection

[MarkP]

7 hours ago, erl said:

 

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🙂

Nice. Hosier Lane?
This must be one of the most photographed kitchen windows in Melbourne.  

Edited May 1, 2020 by MarkP

[erl]

1 hour ago, MarkP said:

Nice. Hosier Lane?
This must be one of the most photographed kitchen windows in Melbourne.  

Yes, and yes!

Cheers Mark. Hope you are surviving well.

[MikeMyers]

On 4/30/2020 at 10:43 PM, erl said:

Hmmm! My conversion of the MM DNG file to jpeg for the web seems to be terrible.

I do have an M10, and do not have a Monochrome.  If I want to take B&W images for my web gallery, is the best way to shoot in RAW and convert to B&W in my processing software (DxO PhotoLab4) or is there a better way?

Currently I am doing this by shooting with B&W film, then scanning.

[erl]

Mike, you have several options.

1. Convert your normal DNG file to B/W via your PP software.

2. Shoot B/W by going into JPG Settings in your M10 and select Monochrome.

You can either shoot JPEG only or DNG + JPEG.

By choosing 2. you will see your LCD in B/W directly.

[Jeff S]

RAW/DNG will provide the most file information and the most flexibility (and might benefit from future editing software updates).  Whether that will yield "better" results will depend on your PP skills (decision making and techniques).

Jeff

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[MikeMyers]

I suspect the better answer is to shoot in RAW/DNG, which is the only image I will download to my computer, and also JPEG so I get to see a rough rendering of what my B&W image might look like.  As to my PP skills - let's say my grade might be "B+" for now.  The more experienced users in the DxO PhotoLab4 forum are constantly showing me ways to improve, and even after I "improve" they find more ways.  

I was going to consider buying an "M-A", but now I've got the feeling I would be going backwards from my M3, if for no other reason than the viewfinder.  I enjoy shooting film, but my M10 gives me many more options.  For now, I will continue to shoot both.  I also especially enjoy shooting B&W, but I can't afford to buy a Monochrom in addition to my M10.  

I like the images posted up above, but while the ISO 6400 looks more like it was shot on film, I prefer the first two for "general use".  Higher ISO means I can use a higher shutter speed than the film I'm now using.

[Jeff S]

12 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I suspect the better answer is to shoot in RAW/DNG, which is the only image I will download to my computer, and also JPEG so I get to see a rough rendering of what my B&W image might look like.  As to my PP skills - let's say my grade might be "B+" for now.  The more experienced users in the DxO PhotoLab4 forum are constantly showing me ways to improve, and even after I "improve" they find more ways.  

 

 

 

Mastering techniques, regardless of chosen software, is the basic and easy part.  The hard part is figuring out when, where and to what degree to apply those techniques, i.e.,vision,  judgment and decision making.  The JPEG doesn't help much with that, other than providing someone else's idea of some possible basic adjustments.  

Jeff