M10 Stuck On ISO 400

[jdlaing]

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As my first post on this site says, I have had the camera pre-ordered since February and just got notification from my dealer on Monday that it is in. I don’t have the camera yet, I get it tomorrow. I have been aware of the issue and weighed that into if I should take the camera offered to me at this stage or wait until next year.

Regarding jaapv's reference to driving right over for a repair, I live in Wyoming so that is not exactly easy.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that I have a high enough serial number that the build date reflects being well clear of a problem component, I will be happy to share the majority of my serial number on this thread when I get the camera in hand.

Here is to hoping that this was limited to a specific build and not the entire line of cameras built thus far.

If the concern is that high I would wait until next year as you say.

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[Reciprocity]

No, that is not easy, but if you register (documented) as a professional in Wetzlar you will get professional service, which includes expedited repairs and loaners. I am aware that there have been one or two mishaps in this system, but in general, it works very well.

Wetzlar is only an UPS distant from Wyoming. after all.

 

 

Thanks, the last time I checked there was nothing in the U.S. and I had a primary lens in Germany for 5 months, not good. 

 

I'll look into it again.

 

As for the comment above about waiting until next year, it is potentially too late for that as the camera arrives at my doorstep tomorrow. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Reciprocity

[scott kirkpatrick]

Please use the availability thread to post the "manufacture date" and the first four numbers of your serial.  That will contribute to the data available for estimating M10 age and contents.  And enjoy your M10 fully.

[Simon]

Hmmm. One participant on this thread who had the issue notified Wetzlar that he needed his M10 cameras professionally, made an appointment, drove over, had one camera fixed on the spot and received a loaner for the other. I cannot see what is wrong with this service.

I find the assumption that Leica just repairs/exchanges the cameras without analyzing the data rather naive.

They would be mad not to look for correlations in batch numbers, assembly period, technicians involved, etc.

In that context, the collection of serial numbers on this forum, by nature incomplete, is bound to rather unreliable compared to the exact records that Leica keeps.

That’s all well and good if you live close enough in Germany to do that but this would be the exception rather than the rule for most readers of this (English) forum and indeed most owners globally. Does Leica want to be a global brand or just a German brand?

[jaapv]

As I said, UPS is just one phone call away... And so is Leica Customer Service.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Hmmm. One participant on this thread who had the issue notified Wetzlar that he needed his M10 cameras professionally, made an appointment, drove over, had one camera fixed on the spot and received a loaner for the other. I cannot see what is wrong with this service.

I find the assumption that Leica just repairs/exchanges the cameras without analyzing the data rather naive.

They would be mad not to look for correlations in batch numbers, assembly period, technicians involved, etc.

In that context, the collection of serial numbers on this forum, by nature incomplete,  is bound to rather unreliable compared to the exact records that Leica keeps.

I've also found customer.care in Wetzlar to be organized and competent.  This is important to me since in Israel the only Leica representative or contact has always been some importer for multiple brands, with little special Leica knowledge or motivation.  So when something goes wrong, I pay for the initial shipment and stuff comes back at Leica's expense reasonably quickly.

 

However, Leica does not share information with customers (or even with the customer.care desk) until it is absolutely necessary.   So while I agree with Jaapv that they will analyze our problems to find the best solutions for Leica, we are certainly entitled to share any information that will help in early detection or in just making us feel more comfortable (or nervous).  Early detection by the users is real and valuable (M8 IR problems went unnoticed until after it shipped), and most of us are capable of reacting appropriately.  So listing the problems in this forum keeps useful pressure on Leica and isn't going to sink the M10.

[jaapv]

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Listing does help, however, conclusions from the anecdotal evidence are not really useful. I don't think any manufacturer shares this kind of internal analysis with his customers.

Re the M8: I am convinced that the IR problem was known at Leica, however somebody in marketing decided that it would not matter in practical use. The backlash caught them by surprise .

[derleicaman]

Listing does help, however, conclusions from the anecdotal evidence are not really useful. I don't think any manufacturer shares this kind of internal analysis with his customers.

Re the M8: I am convinced that the IR problem was known at Leica, however somebody in marketing decided that it would not matter in practical use. The backlash caught them by surprise .

Interesting that the IR problem with the M8 is mentioned. That was certainly an embarrassment and I think one reason why Steven Lee's tenure as CEO was so short. I had a camera on beta test from Leica prior to the official intro at Photokina 2006 for at least 4 months and never noticed the IR issue. I chalk this up to my inexperience in handling digital files back then. Once the problem became known, I noticed everyone dressed in various shades of purple (when their clothing was really black) at Photokina. I remember that the only issue I had at the time and reported to Leica was with the accuracy of the framelines compared to my film M cameras.

 

Well my own M10 arrives in a few days. Fingers crossed there are no issues with the ISO dial!

[jaapv]

It is indeed interesting that so many knowledgeable betatesters missed it, when the early users (me amongst them )  figured it out in a few days. I got one of the pre-introduction cameras and drove over to the camera shop for a filter after I took a flash photograph of a black cat sitting on a synthetic blanket containing black on the first evening I had it - but I was helped by the fact that I had been working with a Nikon photographer to solve the same problem on the D70 some time before.

 

The parallel to the M10 is that this ISO wheel problem most likely  did not surface during beta testing either.

[willeica]

 

 

Well my own M10 arrives in a few days. Fingers crossed there are no issues with the ISO dial!

 

Bill, I will bring mine to Chicago and, hopefully, we can compare notes when we meet next week. I largely use the ISO dial on A in daylight hours and I only switch to specific settings in difficult lighting such as indoors or at night. I have had no problems with the M10 so far. It is by far the nicest handling digital M yet. I am sure that you will love it.

 

William

[Reciprocity]

I got mine last night, SN is 5196XXX, date on box is 8/22/17. I am loving the size, operationally it seems fine for the most part but right away there are a few Q/C issues.

 

As soon as I checked out the VF I noticed the vertical RF is off, I have a black logo on order from DAG so once I go to swap those, I will make the adjustment, have done it before, it's fairly easy. 

The ISO dial does not line up perfectly with the line on the body, it is ever so slightly off. If this means I have a new type ISO dial, I will take it. 

The shutter speed display in the VF sometimes dims and brightens wildly depending on what I am doing, I hope this is a firmware thing as it is fairly distracting. 

 

Other than that, this is pretty much the M digital I have been looking for.

[digitalfx]

 

The shutter speed display in the VF sometimes dims and brightens wildly depending on what I am doing, I hope this is a firmware thing as it is fairly distracting. 

 

 

 

 

I believe this is FW related...its on the FW bug list thread. I noticed this very early on back in February when mine arrived and it annoyed me...yet lately I dont even notice it. Not sure if it resolved itself or I just got used to it and block it out. I'll pay attention and see if its still happening.

[digitalfx]

I'm sorry, I know I am new here and all, but I find this and the previous posts on the matter by you to be overly dismissive and somewhat marginalizing of other's concerns. 

 

 

 

 

I think you are misunderstanding my comments. I am absolutely not dismissive of the issue. For that matter if my camera had a problem, I would be very upset as well. My posts are in regard to the suggestions that those without a problem should stop using the ISO dial because a dozen or so people have an issue. I think this is a foolish recommendation on multiple levels. First, if you stop using the ISO dial for fear it might break...you are only prolonging that issue which could potentially bite you when your warranty expires. Why would you not want to use a important function of your camera for fear it might fail? 

 

If you took the time to review my posts, you would notice that the vast majority are responses to individuals who dont even have the problem in the first place. Obviously the issue has occurred enough that it is concerning...and extremely disappointing. As a long time Leica owner its very disappointing that their flagship model has had multiple issues, an ISO knob that could fail, and it seems many users are reporting RF misalignments. This points to a larger QC issue that must be resolved.

 

All that being said...should a new M10 owner stop using the ISO dial for fear they too may have a failure...NO. Use your camera and enjoy it. 

Should Leica step up and create a system to expedite these issues? YES. Leica has a long history of extremely slow repairs...even simple repairs take way too long...part of the issue is the process, especially for those outside of Germany. This needs to be resolved...especially for those with issues that are a direct result of poor QC on Leica's part.

[Reciprocity]

I think you are misunderstanding my comments. I am absolutely not dismissive of the issue. For that matter if my camera had a problem, I would be very upset as well. My posts are in regard to the suggestions that those without a problem should stop using the ISO dial because a dozen or so people have an issue. I think this is a foolish recommendation on multiple levels. First, if you stop using the ISO dial for fear it might break...you are only prolonging that issue which could potentially bite you when your warranty expires. Why would you not want to use a important function of your camera for fear it might fail? 

 

If you took the time to review my posts, you would notice that the vast majority are responses to individuals who dont even have the problem in the first place. Obviously the issue has occurred enough that it is concerning...and extremely disappointing. As a long time Leica owner its very disappointing that their flagship model has had multiple issues, an ISO knob that could fail, and it seems many users are reporting RF misalignments. This points to a larger QC issue that must be resolved.

 

All that being said...should a new M10 owner stop using the ISO dial for fear they too may have a failure...NO. Use your camera and enjoy it. 

Should Leica step up and create a system to expedite these issues? YES. Leica has a long history of extremely slow repairs...even simple repairs take way too long...part of the issue is the process, especially for those outside of Germany. This needs to be resolved...especially for those with issues that are a direct result of poor QC on Leica's part.

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to outline it like this. I certainly agree with using the dial as intended and desired, makes no sense to avoid a tool and be fearful of it going South, I am using mine often and plan to keep it that way. 

 

But at this point, anyone who is aware of the issue has got to be feeling a sense of when is it going to go out on them? I think what happens in topics like this is that context can get lost over time as is what might have happened with me in this one.

 

I sure hope they can get their Q/C tighter, having a camera arrive with a vertical alignment issue out of the box is not good, I also think the dealer should have taken the time to note this, you don't even need a battery to check that.

[mr_big]

My posts are in regard to the suggestions that those without a problem should stop using the ISO dial because a dozen or so people have an issue. 

 

Not once did I say I wasn't going to use the ISO dial. If you look back at my previous posts I said the opposite.

[S.Rolf]

For me, I am more perplexed than concerned.

 

The manufacturing process is identical for each M10.

Therefore, why is it that this failure is not 100% rather than intermittent?

With other products failures can usually be traced back to a specific lot number of a specific component manufactured by an outside vendor and therefore it's confined to a specific range of S/N's.  But in this case, it appears to be random with respect to the S/N's.

 

What is it that is unique to those "bad copies"?  Doesn't make sense.

[jaapv]

No mystery. Leicas are assembled by human beings, and, unlike robots, humans are random and inconsistent.

[Eoin]

No mystery. Leicas are assembled by human beings, and, unlike robots, humans are random and inconsistent.

 

By that very same explanation, one could also include the owner (camera user) as a possible cause of the issue through unintended or untested movement during the ISO change process.

 

The knob is difficult to raise into the change position, unintended or excessive force or rotational movement as the knob is being raised could also contribute to the failure of the component.

 

I'm sure they will get to the cause and find a solution. However, it is still a point of failure on units produced after they have said the issue was resolved.

IMO, this mechanism is flawed and should now carry an extended warranty beyond the standard one. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

I agree. But I think it is unfair to assign user error to this flaw. A mechanism should be designed to withstand reasonable user (ab)use.

[Eoin]

Oh no, sorry!. I'm not in any way saying the user is to blame, absolutely the mechanism should be designed to withstand all possible actions. I was merely suggesting another possible source of random and inconsistency into the equation. 

Customers are never to blame   .