M10? - Sorry, no!

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The first (not possible then perfectly possible) digital M was not a full format camera either. It was called M8, remember?

I certainly do remember, having owned both of them. However, the thing that some believe Leica said to be impossible was the FF digital M, and it relates to the time when the M8 was already sold:

 

a dead end today may not mean a dead end forever

In the M8 era it was declared that a Full frame Leica digital rangefinder was impossible 

[jaapv]

Ah the vagaries of the English language and Spin Doctors

 

Jaap you are right - the proper word should have been "not possible" instead of impossible" - but you do get the drift of my point?

 

It was Not Possible at that stage but ultimately it was done

 

Now someone at Leica says a Hybrid Viewfinder is a Dead end

You say it is likely possible but does not fit into Leica's model strategy

 

So let's speak plain English

It is possible but Leica doesn't want to do it or

It is a Dead end (Quote "cannot fit in the EVF plus the Rangfinder mechanism under the top plate space" ) as in "it is not possible technically"?

 

I guess if it is technically possible (patent filed) then with enough consumer demand the "not possible" or 'not in our strategy" can always change

 

Some did say "the very difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer".

Who at Leica says so? I haven't heard it, in fact they are extremely unlikely to think so, but they may well think it is not vialble economically and strategically. -At this point of time-

Indeed, the point is "enough consumer demand". I think Leica is in a better position to judge expected sales against development costs, taking into account that such a camera would impact SL and M10 sales, than we are.

[SrMi]

Who at Leica says so? I haven't heard it, in fact they are extremely unlikely to think so, but they may well think it is not vialble economically and strategically. -At this point of time-

Indeed, the point is "enough consumer demand". I think Leica is in a better position to judge expected sales against development costs, taking into account that such a camera would impact SL and M10 sales, than we are.

 

 

Viewfinder (quarterly journal of LHSA), Vol 50, No 1 "A DISCUSSION WITH STEFAN DANIEL & JESKO VON OEYNHAUSEN"

 

(talking about hybrid viewfinder)

"And to be quite frank, we had a pre-development project to analyze that and it was a dead end. It would have been a so-so finder, a so-so rangefinder and a medium quality EVF panel"

 

I assumed that most people who care about Leica cameras are members of LHSA ;-) and are reading the "Viewfinder".

[jaapv]

Thanks - I guess that is that

[Bill Livingston]

I still think talk of a hybrid is a bit of a red herring and tends to take people away from the best solution. Two M cameras... one with a pure rangefinder and one with an EVF.

 

That way everyone is happy and as time moves on, the market determines the dominant version.

 

Maintenance of M for Messeucher is a real dead end as it suggests there will never be an EVF M for the coming generations and limits the M cameras potential.

 

An EVF M to use with short telephoto, wide angle and manual focus (in the same way as the SL works with M lenses) means a modern camera for future M users... whilst retaining the OVF version of the M as it is today ensures those who want/need/desire the traditional M, also have a camera to own/aspire to.

 

There isn’t an ‘all or nothing’ here... I fail to see why anyone would think there was... unless there was a fear that a highly successful EVF M would be SO successful it would hasten the end of the traditional optical rangefinder.

 

Unfortunately, I think that IS the issue...

[lct]

Yes but as suggested above that "EVF M" would probably kill the bulky SL and would not have an M mount most probably so it would not allow for auto image magnification contrary to M240 and M10. Also some people do like rangefinders and don't want, or cannot afford, to carry two cameras at all. An updated M240 or M10 with an M mount and a modern accessory EVF would be the response IMHO.

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Actually now I'm a couple of weeks or so into M10 ownership and I have to say that most of the skepticism I had before taking the plunge and buying the camera has evaporated. Every time I pick up the camera I still have the great feeling I had a couple of weeks ago when I collected the camera in Bordeaux. It does feel surprisingly good in the hand, and that was an unexpected bonus.......It's the first thing that struck me about the "10".

 

I have added a "Thumbie" and for me that works extremely well, in fact I find it actually helps with the handling of the thinner body.

Around 50% of the time I have the camera in the Leica half case, but I prefer the camera "bare", it's on when I think the camera might need some protection.

I dumped the leather strap that came with the camera and pulled out the bog standard Leica fabric strap with the rubber shoulder pad, easily for me the best strap for any M. The leather ones take too long to "run-in" and are too slippery on the shoulder.

 

The ASA dial I still find to be mildly useless and since honing my Auto ASA set-up I've not found reason to mess with it at all.

 

I like the simplified button arrangement on the back, and the simplified ON/OFF switch is good too.

 

I don't miss video at all, as per' my other posts on this subject the M's are all the better without that facility, for me anyway.

I still wish that the AUTO setting on the shutter dial was visibly clearer, ( i.e.: not in almost invisible RED ), but again I should stop moaning about that and get used to the camera tape arrow that adorns all my M's at the AUTO slot.

 

I got the VisoFlex EVF for the "10" and for what it is I do like it. I don't find it a whole hell of a lot better than the EVF I have for the M240, but it works well especially for the WA lenses that I favour, ( those would be the WATE, 24mm ASPH,  21mm VC and the 18mm ASPH ). I only have one lens above 50mm and that's a 75mm VC so it's good to have the EVF for the rare occasions I mount something longer than 50mm.

I've still yet to try out my R lenses with the R-M adapter, but here again the EVF will no doubt prove it's worth.

 

I still wish the OVF on the "10" wasn't as "long" as it is, it's probably best suited for a 50mm lens but for me a 28mm is my "normal" focal length lens and so I still find it hard to see those full 28mm frame lines clearly.........but it's no big deal. Framing with an M is hit and miss anyway, as long as it's somewhere within the relevant frame lines I've always just re-cropped in post whether working with film or digital.

 

I do find that the M10 does seem to start up a fraction slower than my M240's, maybe that's down to the cards I'm using, don't know....It is noticeable, but so far not too frustrating.

 

Battery life I'm finding plenty good enough and that's with nearly new batteries. I don't shoot a lot when I go out with the camera be it work or pleasure, maybe 50-100 shots max', no more that's for sure, so a battery does last me a day even with occasional EVF use.

 

Imagewise the camera is just superb, I haven't found any fault yet with it's colour rendering and I love it's "look" at 6400 ASA.

 

So far in fact everything is a lot better than I expected and I really do appreciate using the "10", it's a great tool that's been very thoughtfully refined by Leica...... 

[Ozytripper]

Viewfinder (quarterly journal of LHSA), Vol 50, No 1 "A DISCUSSION WITH STEFAN DANIEL & JESKO VON OEYNHAUSEN"

 

(talking about hybrid viewfinder)

"And to be quite frank, we had a pre-development project to analyze that and it was a dead end. It would have been a so-so finder, a so-so rangefinder and a medium quality EVF panel"

 

I assumed that most people who care about Leica cameras are members of LHSA ;-) and are reading the "Viewfinder".

Thank you SrMi for your response to JAAP's query. 

 

JAAP you may also like to read "Leica M10 review: The Quintessential Digital M under the "Hybrid viewfinder (or lack of)" section

The fuller version to SrMi's quote was "And to be frank......................................medium quality EVF panel" followed by:

Leica's GOAL was to make an outstanding viewfinder and exceptional rangefinder, and to fit it into a 33.7mm wide top plate. So how can Fuji pull off this miracle? Simple. They don't have to accomodate an optical rangefinder, one that occupies much of the area the M10 top plate

 

So it was already part of Leica's GOAL to have a hybrid viewfinder but was unsuccessful at this stage. It is not and I quote you "does not fit into the Leica Model strategy"

So perhaps it may be possible soon as you already indicated that a Patent was filed.

 

I also agree that Leica is in the best position to judge consumer demands for such a feature and to balance its sales 

 

Every company needs to move forward to survive. Staying stagnant is a recipe for disaster in the long term. And I qualify my statement. No need for bells and whistles. But just don't negate practical functions such as IBIS, battery and SD card doors (instead of having to remove the bottom plate) and dual SD card slots, 

A hybrid viewfinder would give the M the perfect USP to compete for years to come. I am sure every year more and more old timers are finding it harder to use the OVF effectively as eyesight deteriorates. Also many eyeglass wearers are still (including me) finding it difficult to see the 28mm framelines

[jplomley]

Having used an SL with M glass for the past 4 months, I'm done with the M until there is an integrated EVF. Perfect exposures every time, ability to shoot wide open anywhere in the frame and nail it, and see the DOF in real time. Absolutely total control of the photographic process and therefore my vision.

[vladik]

Having used an SL with M glass for the past 4 months, I'm done with the M until there is an integrated EVF. Perfect exposures every time, ability to shoot wide open anywhere in the frame and nail it, and see the DOF in real time. Absolutely total control of the photographic process and therefore my vision.

 

 

This is exactly what I want, plus green horizon line and video. If that mean that this camera is 1mm thicker so be it. Just EVF no hybrid or rangefinder.

[Jon Warwick]

Having used an SL with M glass for the past 4 months, I'm done with the M until there is an integrated EVF. Perfect exposures every time, ability to shoot wide open anywhere in the frame and nail it, and see the DOF in real time. Absolutely total control of the photographic process and therefore my vision.

So to those of you using M lenses on the SL ....to clarify the process for focusing ..... you choose exactly what part of the SL's EVF you want to target to be in focus (presumably using a scroll tab on the back of the camera to pinpoint what part of the frame you will target for focusing? Does this focus point need to coincide with one of the many fixed focus "dots" on screen, or can it be literally anywhere? ) --> hit another button to zoom in for focusing (how much does it zoom in by?) --> then focus (is there electronic focus peaking in the viewfinder to help here, if so, is it very accurate? -- or are you simply eye'ing a blank EVF coming progressively into clearer focus, like you would an optical viewfinder on an SLR)? --> pull the zoom function back out to full-width frame and take the shot.

 

Is that the essentially proces - anything right / wrong / missing?

[jaapv]

Having used an SL with M glass for the past 4 months, I'm done with the M until there is an integrated EVF. Perfect exposures every time, ability to shoot wide open anywhere in the frame and nail it, and see the DOF in real time. Absolutely total control of the photographic process and therefore my vision.

Each to his own, I prefer a rangefinder focusing system, but may I ask why you chose a rangefinder camera in the first place if you dislike that style of focusing?

[jplomley]

@ Jon: My process is as follow for street; I compose the scene and focus at the plane of interest. I take the image. Most of the time, I nail the focus just doing this, the EVF is that good. If there is time, I chose the 5x magnify and move the joystick to my intended plane of focus to fine tune focus. I then trip the shutter (having already composed, that is all that is necessary). I really find no advantage to focus peaking, and rather an annoyance and largely inaccurate in high contrast scenes or when using my wide angles (21 SEM and 28 Cron Asph v2). You can magnify anywhere in the image with the SL, you are not limited by pre-defined focus points. For landscape imaging on a tripod (the RRS plate for the SL is spot-on terrific), I always magnify my intended plane of focus and carefully check my DOF to ensure my near-point and far-point are as intended.

 

@ jaapv: I should clarify my statement, I will not buy any future M models that do not have an integrated EVF to the same standard, or better, than the SL. I still use my MM1 and shall never part with this camera. IMHO, there is no replacement for the unique imaging this sensor delivers. I started in RF with an M6, then added a pair of M7's and M9's. Shot these for years, skipping the M240. I love the RF style of shooting, but I also recognize its limitations. Those limitations are ameliorated with the SL's EVF. Once one becomes accustomed to the level of control provided by the EVF in the image making process, it is very difficult to reliinquish those features. 

[lct]

The SL has no M mount hence no auto image magnification feature so it cannot compete with current digital Ms from this viewpoint. 

[jaapv]

I have never seen image magnification in a range/viewfinder.

[jplomley]

That is correct LCT. For me personally, I would not want auto-magnify, as I prefer to compose my scene first. Auto magnify would just be an annoyance to this initial process.

[lct]

No problem but having both is (or would be) great though. I like much my Sony & Fuji bodies but they take too much time to focus sometimes. Only way to reduce the gap between RF and mirrorless cameras is auto image magnification IMHO. I mean with M lenses of course. AF is another story.

[jplomley]

Hi lct, I've not used the Sony or Fuji EVF's. The SL was my first experience with this technology. Why is it that the Sony and Fuji take too much time to focus sometimes?

[lct]

Because i have to press a button or a dial to bring up the magnified image, the same way as you do with your SL i guess.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Bill Livingston]

I have never seen image magnification in a range/viewfinder.

Now you are just trying to wind us all up Jaap...!

 

We don’t need anything other than an M mount in an EVF M camera... the add on EVF works perfectly well with all M lenses and gives image magnification, so a proper EVF, built into the M camera instead of an RF (on the M EVF) version is all we need. No autofocus, no nothing... no need to change the mount and no need to cater for autofocus.

 

And all those who loath the idea, can just buy the OVF version of the M camera. No one needs to be upset!

 

(I would end up with both, and I’m sure quite a few others on here would too...).

 

And for those who STILL object to two versions on the M camera..? With one of them considered pretty close to being the devil incarnate? Think of it as retribution for voting us out of the EU...