cirke Posted July 31, 2017 Share #921 Posted July 31, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) You can have it today, it's called Leica SL Not at all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 Hi cirke, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Bill Livingston Posted July 31, 2017 Share #922 Posted July 31, 2017 You can have it today, it's called Leica SL Whenever anyone gives this answer it’s obvious that there is no understanding of the reason the M is so loved amongst so many of us... it’s the form factor, the small size, the way it looks, the way it fits perfectly in your hands. The SL is technically an excellent camera and if I wanted a large camera ‘SLR’ experience, I would buy one. But I love my M and would add a second body if I could have an EVF version. Not instead of, but as well as.... that way we could have the advantages of the RF when needed and the advantages of the EVF when needed. I’m less happy with the concept of a hybrid now I’ve thought about it... mainly as there are many users whose whole reason for using an M is the RF as they see the M as meaning ‘messucher’ only. A hybrid would end that... and therefore it would be the end of a pure rangefinder M. An EVF version as an addition to the M range allows that purity to continue, and allows the M form factor and manual focussing (and the use of legacy lenses) for a whole new generation (and those of us in ‘our generation’ who see the value of such a camera). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 31, 2017 Share #923 Posted July 31, 2017 Great way to kill the SL if you ask me . Now why not giving us a modern accessory EVF instead of the outdated Visoflex Leica is offering now. Same bad move as with the M240... Using its sluggish EVF is a PITA but it is not expensive at least... As if Leica wanted to push us to buy an SL... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted July 31, 2017 Share #924 Posted July 31, 2017 Great way to kill the SL if you ask me . Now why not giving us a modern accessory EVF instead of the outdated Visoflex Leica is offering now. Same bad move as with the M240... Using its sluggish EVF is a PITA but it is not expensive at least... As if Leica wanted to push us to buy an SL... I think the SL is the high quality autofocus/video full frame EVF Camera... probably the Leica Jaap should own, if he doesn’t already...! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladik Posted July 31, 2017 Share #925 Posted July 31, 2017 You can have it today, it's called Leica SL No I do not have it today in SL. SL is a fantastic camera but it is too big and I do not want huge zoom and prime lenses as good as they might be. I want an M size body, M mount and EVF. Is it too much to ask? I love my Fuji X-Pro2, but full frame Leica version (less the hybrid viewfinder) would surely by an attractive option. P.S. I sold my M 240 and I am on waiting list for M10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladik Posted July 31, 2017 Share #926 Posted July 31, 2017 Whenever anyone gives this answer it’s obvious that there is no understanding of the reason the M is so loved amongst so many of us... it’s the form factor, the small size, the way it looks, the way it fits perfectly in your hands. The SL is technically an excellent camera and if I wanted a large camera ‘SLR’ experience, I would buy one. But I love my M and would add a second body if I could have an EVF version. Not instead of, but as well as.... that way we could have the advantages of the RF when needed and the advantages of the EVF when needed. I’m less happy with the concept of a hybrid now I’ve thought about it... mainly as there are many users whose whole reason for using an M is the RF as they see the M as meaning ‘messucher’ only. A hybrid would end that... and therefore it would be the end of a pure rangefinder M. An EVF version as an addition to the M range allows that purity to continue, and allows the M form factor and manual focussing (and the use of legacy lenses) for a whole new generation (and those of us in ‘our generation’ who see the value of such a camera).The SL is technically an excellent camera and if I wanted a large camera ‘SLR’ experience, I would buy one. But I love my M and would add a second body if I could have an EVF version. The SL is technically an excellent camera and if I wanted a large camera ‘SLR’ experience, I would buy one. But I love my M and would add a second body if I could have an EVF version. Not instead of, but as well as.... My sentiment exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted August 1, 2017 Share #927 Posted August 1, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Whenever anyone gives this answer it’s obvious that there is no understanding of the reason the M is so loved amongst so many of us... it’s the form factor, the small size, the way it looks, the way it fits perfectly in your hands... ... AND you forgot the rangefinder! Without RF ist's no "M" And so my answer to this was right Why Leica does not make an M (or rather N so no one is up in arms) no rangefinder just EVF... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted August 1, 2017 Share #928 Posted August 1, 2017 The SL makes sense if you primarily want AF with the option of M Mount compatibility. But for many of us who see value in EVF as a front line photographic tool and happen to be throughly committed, both emotionally and financially, to M mount lenses, the use of an M lens adapter is an anathema. One spends for this glass to get every last bit of its character. What those of us in this camp want is an EVF based, native M mount backed by a sensor, ala the M10, with appropriate M specific micro-lensing. Same basic control interface. Same simplistic menu structure. Same diminutive size. Not a 94-98% good enough solution. A 100%, all in, M mount specific one. Why would we expect anything less than that from a company dedicated to imaging excellence? I'll freely admit that I do waiver on just throwing in the towel and buying as SL and living with the loss of a little magic. But even with the price drop, when it comes right down to it, so far I haven't been able to buy an SL. Nope, I continue to hold out hope that ultimately there will be an MQ. In the meantime, while less than ideal, I use my Ms with EVF whenever appropriate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted August 1, 2017 Share #929 Posted August 1, 2017 Better just buy the SL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted August 2, 2017 Share #930 Posted August 2, 2017 While manual focus with EVF and M lenses works very well (love the combination of magnification and focus peaking), it is slow. To focus precisely, you need first to open the aperture to its maximum, focus with EVF, then close the aperture to the desired value (works best when tilting it 90 degrees). Rangefinder focusing is still the fastest way to focus manually with M-lenses, therefore I wonder if the market for an EVF-only M-body is there at all. A hybrid viewfinder would be best, but only if it does not reduce the quality of the viewfinder. Leica tried to develop such a hybrid viewfinder but it was a dead end: "It would have been a so-so finder, a so-so rangefinder, and a medium quality EVF panel". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 2, 2017 Share #931 Posted August 2, 2017 [...] To focus precisely, you need first to open the aperture to its maximum, focus with EVF, then close the aperture to the desired value [...] Not with modern EVFs anymore but image magnification is often necessary to nail focus and it takes some time when it must be done manually. Problem with the SL, or a mini-SL, is that Leica will not choose an M mount for them so that auto magnification won't work with M lenses contrary to digital rangefinders. All this to say that the best solution to use M lenses will remain M bodies i guess but we (at least i) need a modern accessory EVF for them, not a sluggish thing like former and current Visoflexes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted August 2, 2017 Share #932 Posted August 2, 2017 Not with modern EVFs anymore but image magnification is often necessary to nail focus and it takes some time when it must be done manually. Problem with the SL, or a mini-SL, is that Leica will not choose an M mount for them so that auto magnification won't work with M lenses contrary to digital rangefinders. All this to say that the best solution to use M lenses will remain M bodies i guess but we (at least i) need a modern accessory EVF for them, not a sluggish thing like former and current Visoflexes. The reason for focusing with open aperture is to decrease the DOF and thus focus precisely. With closed aperture much more appears in focus and you can only approximate the focus. What looks sharp in EVF may not be sharp in print. I wonder if I am the only one doing it ;-). Other EVF cameras keep the aperture wide open while focusing and then close it when taking the picture. I disagree about the Visoflex Typ 020: it is a joy to use and works very well on M10. It is much, much better than the one for M240 (Visoflex EVF2), which IMO was barely usable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted August 2, 2017 Share #933 Posted August 2, 2017 While manual focus with EVF and M lenses works very well (love the combination of magnification and focus peaking), it is slow. To focus precisely, you need first to open the aperture to its maximum, focus with EVF, then close the aperture to the desired value (works best when tilting it 90 degrees). Rangefinder focusing is still the fastest way to focus manually with M-lenses, therefore I wonder if the market for an EVF-only M-body is there at all. A hybrid viewfinder would be best, but only if it does not reduce the quality of the viewfinder. Leica tried to develop such a hybrid viewfinder but it was a dead end: "It would have been a so-so finder, a so-so rangefinder, and a medium quality EVF panel". a dead end today may not mean a dead end forever In the M8 era it was declared that a Full frame Leica digital rangefinder was impossible Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterGA Posted August 2, 2017 Share #934 Posted August 2, 2017 If you like using a rangefinder and M lenses the M10 is a very nice upgrade to the slightly too bulky 240 - because the viewfinder is a lot better. My days with Leica M are probably coming to an end because my Leica SL is just easier for me to use and if I want light and easy to carry around for snapshots- there are a plethora of cameras around which provide the same IQ for much lower cost. If Leica were to bring out a camera the size of an M with an advanced EVF ala the SL it might change my mind - most of my lens collection are lux type lenses and designed to shoot wide open - the hit ratio for critical focus on an SL using M lenses kills any M ever made for me - the SL and Noctilux combo is worth the price of the SL for me - I wouldn't bother owning a Noctilux if I had to use it on an M body and rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 2, 2017 Share #935 Posted August 2, 2017 a dead end today may not mean a dead end forever In the M8 era it was declared that a Full frame Leica digital rangefinder was impossible It wasn't called impossible by Leica. It was called not possible with present technology. Which was true until Leica and Kodak developed the M9 sensor. A hybrid/digital rangefinder for the M is likely possible, Leica even filed a patent, but it probably does not fit in in Leica's model strategy -at present-. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 2, 2017 Share #936 Posted August 2, 2017 The reason for focusing with open aperture is to decrease the DOF and thus focus precisely. With closed aperture much more appears in focus and you can only approximate the focus. What looks sharp in EVF may not be sharp in print. I wonder if I am the only one doing it ;-) [...] Did it for 30+ years with (d)SLRs and RFs but i focus stop down my M lenses in most cases with my mirrorless cameras. It's faster and there are no focus shift issues anymore but image magnification is necessary to nail focus. Works up to f/8 more or less, perhaps more with the SL i don't know. Worth a try. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted August 2, 2017 Share #937 Posted August 2, 2017 It wasn't called impossible by Leica. It was called not possible with present technology. Which was true until Leica and Kodak developed the M9 sensor. A hybrid/digital rangefinder for the M is likely possible, Leica even filed a patent, but it probably does not fit in in Leica's model strategy -at present-. Ah the vagaries of the English language and Spin Doctors Jaap you are right - the proper word should have been "not possible" instead of impossible" - but you do get the drift of my point? It was Not Possible at that stage but ultimately it was done Now someone at Leica says a Hybrid Viewfinder is a Dead end You say it is likely possible but does not fit into Leica's model strategy So let's speak plain English It is possible but Leica doesn't want to do it or It is a Dead end (Quote "cannot fit in the EVF plus the Rangfinder mechanism under the top plate space" ) as in "it is not possible technically"? I guess if it is technically possible (patent filed) then with enough consumer demand the "not possible" or 'not in our strategy" can always change Some did say "the very difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 2, 2017 Share #938 Posted August 2, 2017 Hehe yes it was "not possible" for Leica but it was "possible" for Epson so i became "perfectly possible" for Leica... Well... perfectly with IR cut filters to be honest... Just kidding but... . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted August 2, 2017 Share #939 Posted August 2, 2017 Hehe yes it was "not possible" for Leica but it was "possible" for Epson so i became "perfectly possible" for Leica... Well... perfectly with IR cut filters to be honest... Just kidding but... . Epson made a full format camera? I must have missed that one. What was it called? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 2, 2017 Share #940 Posted August 2, 2017 Epson made a full format camera? I must have missed that one. What was it called? The first (not possible then perfectly possible) digital M was not a full format camera either. It was called M8, remember? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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