M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[IkarusJohn]

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Somebody needs to explain to me how with a rangefinder (Number 1) there could be a moveable patch, so therefore to me number 4 pretty much useless....

When using the EVF.

 

The joystick would replace the existing D pad.

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[daveco]

Self calibrating rangefinder, built in diopter.

[blacksinner]

faster evf or live view response. so i can use tele or other non m mount lens faster 

[Prosophos]

I haven't read through the 25+ pages in this thread, so I apologise if my thoughts are completely at odds with what has transpired thus far.

 

What I hope Leica will do with the M11 is what they've done all along:  maintain the M lineage while incorporating advances that add (not detract) from the M user experience.

 

Specifically:

 

• keep the optical rangefinder (I know many disagree with this because they want electronic visual aids, but for me the OVF with rangefinder patch is the sine qua non of an M camera).
• improve reliability (for the record, I have been pleased with all of my M cameras except for one that arrived with a faulty sensor, but it doesn't hurt to strive for better).
• incorporate latest sensor technology (added megapixels would be nice, but I'd rather have improved colour, dynamic range).
• increase speed of operation (turning on, shutter lag, writing to card, reviewing images).
• make the shutter as quiet as possible (I think they've already done this, to my satisfaction anyway, in the form of the M10-P).
• NOTE:  I wrote about these issues a year ago, with some additional thoughts:  https://prosophos.com/2017/08/30/features-desirable-in-a-new-generation-digital-m-rangefinder/

I'm ready for your slings and arrows...

 

―Peter.

[evikne]

I think (and hope) this is exactly what we are going to see. And maybe a surprise or two …

[IkarusJohn]

I'm intrigued that so many want a quieter, deeper, nicer shutter sound (take your choice).  If that is the priority, then Leica has a lot right.  It is interesting that with the most popular camera in the World (the one in your phone), the shutter could be silent, but the manufacturers make it should like an SLR, complete with the sound of crashing mirror!

 

I agree with this one:

• incorporate latest sensor technology (added megapixels would be nice, but I'd rather have improved colour, dynamic range).

[evikne]

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I wouldn't want a completely soundless Leica, even if they could. It may very well be very quiet and discreet, but I need a confirmation that I have pressed the trigger.

[Jeff S]

<p>

 

It is interesting that with the most popular camera in the World (the one in your phone), the shutter could be silent, but the manufacturers make it should like an SLR, complete with the sound of crashing mirror!

 

In most countries the sound can be muted.

 

Jeff

[sblutter]

"having to remove bottom plate for card and battery"?  For that, Luigi's baseplates with doors on my M9 & 240 obviate dealing with that design dinosaur.  Hope he makes one for the M11 (if its a true upgrade).

 

Am very happy with what I have.  M10 didn't improve IQ or experience enough to be called an 'upgrade' to me.  Money was not a factor in my decision, especially after closely examining dozens of files

 

As ever, lens, user proficiency, artistic intent, shooting and PP execution are far more important than the body or its logo.

 

One addition I'd love but the limitations of the mechanics of the current RF & lenses will never allow:  gadgetless macro to infinity.  Canon's 50 1.8 is gem for that frequent need.  Handheld LV shooting with the screen or EVF are franken-solutions at best.  On a tripod, sure...

[JAC]

Faster startup is my #1. Have missed more than a few shots while the camera is waking up.

 

The quiet shutter is #2.

 

Better external EVF is #3.

[simon_hsn]

Here are some thoughts of a young tech entrepreneur (26 years) that loves his M:

 

I totally agree with the previous comments. The M should remain an M, which means: rangefinder (don't go Fuji X-Pro II, the shooting experience really sucks). I am sure Leica will bring out a TL-mount "full-frame CL/digital viewfinder M"-style camera in the future for those who do find the SL too big/professional but the M too puristic. 

 

Here is how I could imagine an M in the next iteration(s). Note that after all, these advancements might be nice, but to be honest, they are in no way necessary as the current model is already that good. Progress is good though and inevitable, so let's think future:  

 

- Shutter: 1/8000 mechanical shutter (good for those f1.4 shots during the day) with M10-P shutter sound + full electronic shutter (when the tech is available, a la Sony A9) for those very silent moments (church, night, etc.). Implement it in a way that when you keep pushing the shutter dial further the dial bounces back to the "on" position so it can be instantly changed (think of a mechanism like the lever to change the framelines in the viewfinder). 

- Sensor: Make two versions: 24MP for almost everyone and ~50MP for those who want it. Offer an option for real base ISO100 or even lower. Keep up with the lastest tech (why wouldn't they?). 

- Design: M10 is beautiful. If possible make the screen even larger and so it does not stick out (a la TL/SL). The M should be operable with both hands and clothes on -> keep physical dials. 

- Screen: This one is bold: implement the SL screen and with a four button layout into the M and make it stealth, larger, no edges, very bright, OLED and higher resolution. Should be a touchscreen.  

- Wifi: I would be great to have the option to transfer and backup all my images to my Lightroom CC library on my iPhone or Mac with a one button push over wifi. No need for a SD Card anymore in my opinion and more space for a larger battery with very fast built-in storage (say 64 GB). 

- GPS: Why not? It is nice to know exactly where the photo has been taken. 

- Speed: Increased operations performance: i.e. 10 fps, instant startup, no lag for live view and review of images

- Viewfinder: Have the option to only show the framelines of the attached lens to make it even less cluttered (or is there a technical reason why it always shows to focal lenghts?)

 

What I thought that I needed before I had an M but does not matter at all in real life: 

- Metering: Center weighted metering only. Once you learn how to use it, its super simple and makes a lot of fun. Keep it as simple as it is. 

- IBIS: Coming from a Sony A7II I thought this was absolutely necessary. However, it is not. It is super useful for video but in terms of real world photography I found I struggled more with blur from motion of my subjects. In contrast, I now value that I have one less option to to think about when shooting with my M (e.g. no need to turn off IBIS on a tripod, etc.). 

- Viewfinder: Keep it as it is, i.e. showing almost no information. It is such a relief to shoot with a viewfinder that is in no way cluttered. It keeps your focus on what matters most: the framing and the subject. No chimping to your thousand settings you might have dialed in. 

 

Overall, for me, the M is so exciting not because of what it offers but because of what it does not offer. Keep it lean and as simple as possible. 

 

[M11 for me]

I wouldn't want a completely soundless Leica, even if they could. It may very well be very quiet and discreet, but I need a confirmation that I have pressed the trigger.

That would be great. The confirmation could be done by issuing a sound like a shutter click.

[jaapv]

"having to remove bottom plate for card and battery"?  For that, Luigi's baseplates with doors on my M9 & 240 obviate dealing with that design dinosaur.  Hope he makes one for the M11 (if its a true upgrade).

 

 

 

 

His plates are not very popular, I find. I tried to sell one on the B&S, but absolutely no interest.

[jonatdonuts]

Nice list. Though I am not sure a 50MP sensor in the M is practical when you have a mechanical shutter and no IBIS, not that I am advocating for the latter. Image quality would probably be better with the 24 sensor unless you are shooting at very high shutter speeds or on a tripod. For its intended purpose, 24MP is more than enough for the M, but I understand that there are those who also wish to use it for landscape and fashion ultraprints. If the demand was out there, then it certainly wouldn't hurt to offer an alternative. 

 

I like the idea of a flush and SL like screen. Why not? Especially when it would simplify the operation even further. And the cluttered framelines are a common complaint which, if cleared up, would be well received by many. The M3 OVF is still king in this regard. 

 

The only thing I would add to your list would be to squeeze in a switchable EVF - if the technology is small and mature enough so as not to negatively impact upon the quality of the existing OVF. I think it would be a considerate feature for the older generation whose eyesight isn't as good as it once was (probably from shooting the M for too long), and it would be more convenient to use longer focal lengths at wide apertures. For me, 50mm 1.4 is the maximum I can go with the OVF if I am to achieve an acceptably high hit rate on the street. I'd love a 90 APO, but it's not practical without an EVF. 

 

The only thing I would remove from your list is the suggestion to remove SD cards. I am sure there are a lot of M users that still shoot in countries / areas where internet coverage is either unreliable or non-existent. And besides, Adobe's cloud-based monthly subscription scheme is the perfect example of capitalist extortion in the millennial era. They have simply refused to rewrite their horrendous 2007 code for the desktop version, which has not stopped them from increasing the price and raking in a repulsive profit in 2018.

 

 

Here are some thoughts of a young tech entrepreneur (26 years) that loves his M:

 

I totally agree with the previous comments. The M should remain an M, which means: rangefinder (don't go Fuji X-Pro II, the shooting experience really sucks). I am sure Leica will bring out a TL-mount "full-frame CL/digital viewfinder M"-style camera in the future for those who do find the SL too big/professional but the M too puristic. 

 

Here is how I could imagine an M in the next iteration(s). Note that after all, these advancements might be nice, but to be honest, they are in no way necessary as the current model is already that good. Progress is good though and inevitable, so let's think future:  

 

- Shutter: 1/8000 mechanical shutter (good for those f1.4 shots during the day) with M10-P shutter sound + full electronic shutter (when the tech is available, a la Sony A9) for those very silent moments (church, night, etc.). Implement it in a way that when you keep pushing the shutter dial further the dial bounces back to the "on" position so it can be instantly changed (think of a mechanism like the lever to change the framelines in the viewfinder). 

- Sensor: Make two versions: 24MP for almost everyone and ~50MP for those who want it. Offer an option for real base ISO100 or even lower. Keep up with the lastest tech (why wouldn't they?). 

- Design: M10 is beautiful. If possible make the screen even larger and so it does not stick out (a la TL/SL). The M should be operable with both hands and clothes on -> keep physical dials. 

- Screen: This one is bold: implement the SL screen and with a four button layout into the M and make it stealth, larger, no edges, very bright, OLED and higher resolution. Should be a touchscreen.  

- Wifi: I would be great to have the option to transfer and backup all my images to my Lightroom CC library on my iPhone or Mac with a one button push over wifi. No need for a SD Card anymore in my opinion and more space for a larger battery with very fast built-in storage (say 64 GB). 

- GPS: Why not? It is nice to know exactly where the photo has been taken. 

- Speed: Increased operations performance: i.e. 10 fps, instant startup, no lag for live view and review of images

- Viewfinder: Have the option to only show the framelines of the attached lens to make it even less cluttered (or is there a technical reason why it always shows to focal lenghts?)

 

What I thought that I needed before I had an M but does not matter at all in real life: 

- Metering: Center weighted metering only. Once you learn how to use it, its super simple and makes a lot of fun. Keep it as simple as it is. 

- IBIS: Coming from a Sony A7II I thought this was absolutely necessary. However, it is not. It is super useful for video but in terms of real world photography I found I struggled more with blur from motion of my subjects. In contrast, I now value that I have one less option to to think about when shooting with my M (e.g. no need to turn off IBIS on a tripod, etc.). 

- Viewfinder: Keep it as it is, i.e. showing almost no information. It is such a relief to shoot with a viewfinder that is in no way cluttered. It keeps your focus on what matters most: the framing and the subject. No chimping to your thousand settings you might have dialed in. 

 

Overall, for me, the M is so exciting not because of what it offers but because of what it does not offer. Keep it lean and as simple as possible. 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by jonatdonuts

[pgh]

Nice list. Though I am not sure a 50MP sensor in the M is practical when you have a mechanical shutter and no IBIS, not that I am advocating for the latter. Image quality would probably be better with the 24 sensor unless you are shooting at very high shutter speeds or on a tripod. For its intended purpose, 24MP is more than enough for the M, but I understand that there are those who also wish to use it for landscape and fashion ultraprints. If the demand was out there, then it certainly wouldn't hurt to offer an alternative. 

 

I wish this concept would die, or at least get a little more nuanced..

People handheld rolleiflexes and hasselblads and mamiyas all of the time with great results.

It is not a problem to handhold a 45mp nikon or a 50 mp canon with a slapping mirror and get fantastically sharp images. Does technique matter more with a high res sensor? Yes, it does, but it is far from demanding a tripod or unreasonably fast shutter speeds. The GFX, at 50 mp and hefty body size is known to be a handhold friendly camera.

The 2 options for sensor is fine with me, but they shouldn't keep having their best be middling sensor tech...

 

The only real thing that would make me upgrade from the M10 is a better sensor - the rest is details to me - I want the best IQ possible in the smallest body that affords interchangeable lenses. Better means higher resolution but also better dynamic range, and hopefully a bit better in low light. If they add one without the other it's not there yet. This is useful in commissioned reportage and editorial work as well - doesn't need to be fashion or landscape. 

[stephengv]

Retain the Level gauge in non "P" models (M11). In Body Image Stabilization and Sensor Cleaning. 

[jonatdonuts]

Again, it really depends on what your uses are. If you are shooting documentary or street - with subjects (as well as your own hands) moving quickly and beyond your control, and the light is less than ideal, you're not going to be taking perfectly steady shots. And when those shots are not steady on a 50MP sensor you are certainly not going to be maximizing the full resolution much of the time.

 

Case in point: print to 30x40 with a 50MP handheld shot of a moving subject and compare it with the same print from a 24MP sensor and I think the majority of us would be unable to tell the difference from a normal viewing distance. Both may look acceptably sharp, but you're not going to see that 50MP benefit. In which case, what's the point of paying extra? The fact that the majority of photojournalists back then used 35mm, and that today the majority use 24MP or below speaks for itself. 

 

Besides, the intended purpose of the M is very different from the intended purpose of the hassleblads, mamiyas, and rolleiflexs, which were mainly used for studio, portrait, or landscape work when the environment was more controlled and /or time is more readily available, tripod or no tripod. Granted, Fan Ho used the Rolleiflex handheld to achieve stunning results for his street masterpieces in 1950s Hong Kong, but then again his technique was to find a nice spot, wait patiently for hours, stay perfectly still, and hold your breath while pressing the shutter. It's a great technique but one which not everyone is comfortable with, or is shooting in a situation where that technique can be effectively used. 

 

 

 

I wish this concept would die, or at least get a little more nuanced..

People handheld rolleiflexes and hasselblads and mamiyas all of the time with great results.

It is not a problem to handhold a 45mp nikon or a 50 mp canon with a slapping mirror and get fantastically sharp images. Does technique matter more with a high res sensor? Yes, it does, but it is far from demanding a tripod or unreasonably fast shutter speeds. The GFX, at 50 mp and hefty body size is known to be a handhold friendly camera.

The 2 options for sensor is fine with me, but they shouldn't keep having their best be middling sensor tech...

 

The only real thing that would make me upgrade from the M10 is a better sensor - the rest is details to me - I want the best IQ possible in the smallest body that affords interchangeable lenses. Better means higher resolution but also better dynamic range, and hopefully a bit better in low light. If they add one without the other it's not there yet. This is useful in commissioned reportage and editorial work as well - doesn't need to be fashion or landscape. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by jonatdonuts

[IkarusJohn]

It’s pixel size, rather than number of pixels which puts pressure on technique. A large sensor, with the same pixel density as the 24MP sensor in the M10 demands no greater shooting technique. Conversely, increase the density, smaller photo sites, greater risk of blur.

 

I have nothing against more MP - but I have nothing for it, either. I don’t really see a benefit, and I don’t like the cost. 100MP would be nice, but I’d only consider it with a large sensor like the Phase One. Still buying my Lotto tickets ...

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[Keith_W]

The only reason I don't want a 50MP sensor is not because of Leica. It is because Lightroom is slow enough as it is, if I had 50MP it would bring my PC to a crawl - and it's a relatively modern and powerful PC. 

[jonatdonuts]

Unfortunately that's Adobe's unwillingness to invest resources into rewriting the desktop code for Lightroom. The cellphone or tablet application is written in a newer code optimised for speed and efficiency, which is why Lightroom is far more fluid on an iPad despite the fact that it is far less powerful than a modern desktop. 

 

One work around could be to hook up a tablet to your monitor and work from there. But to access all features I believe you would have the purchase the cloud subscription, which gives Adobe more cash and therefore less reason to improve on its 2007 software.

The only reason I don't want a 50MP sensor is not because of Leica. It is because Lightroom is slow enough as it is, if I had 50MP it would bring my PC to a crawl - and it's a relatively modern and powerful PC.