Luke_Miller Posted February 21, 2018 Share #61 Posted February 21, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) But the total resolution of a system is always determined by both lens and sensor. No lens is so perfect that you get 100% of the resolution of the sensor, no sensor is so high resolution that you get 100% of the resolution of the lens. Thus the only thing that changed is that now the lens is more often the limiting factor. However you still get more resolution from using a higher resolution sensor than you would have gotten from using a lower resolution one. I believe this to be correct. Even older lenses will produce more detailed images on modern high resolution cameras than on lower resolution models. I think the point is not that you can't use the older lenses to good effect, but that having paid a premium for the high resolution sensor it makes sense to use lenses that exploit it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 21, 2018 Posted February 21, 2018 Hi Luke_Miller, Take a look here M10 Monochrom ??. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LichtUndDunkelheit Posted February 23, 2018 Share #62 Posted February 23, 2018 My point was rather that many old lenses already have plenty of resolution, and this claim you need the newest glas is primarily a trick to make you buy the newest glas. The later being what fills the refrigerators of those people working for the photography industry, obviously. I would like to add that sharpness is only one aspect of the image quality of lenses, and that designing lenses is an uncomputeable problem, which is why its more of an art than a science, despite the amount of math involved. Thus while some of my lenses will always be very sharp, others will have other qualities. It depends upon what I want to do. Also I dont think the Megapixel race will last too much longer either way. You cannot avoid the harsh limitations of physics - your cannot have higher efficiency than 100%, and you cannot avoid the wave nature of light, limiting your resolution through diffraction, and the inherent shot noise of light. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted February 23, 2018 Share #63 Posted February 23, 2018 My point was rather that many old lenses already have plenty of resolution, and this claim you need the newest glas is primarily a trick to make you buy the newest glas. The later being what fills the refrigerators of those people working for the photography industry, obviously. I would like to add that sharpness is only one aspect of the image quality of lenses, and that designing lenses is an uncomputeable problem, which is why its more of an art than a science, despite the amount of math involved. Thus while some of my lenses will always be very sharp, others will have other qualities. It depends upon what I want to do. Also I dont think the Megapixel race will last too much longer either way. You cannot avoid the harsh limitations of physics - your cannot have higher efficiency than 100%, and you cannot avoid the wave nature of light, limiting your resolution through diffraction, and the inherent shot noise of light. While you might get a lot of people argue that the newest glass is the best ever, I rather agree with you. I have tried and owned some of the newer M glass, but ended up sticking with older lenses because the image quality of the older lenses was far more pleasing to me. All a matter of taste, of course. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted February 23, 2018 Share #64 Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) And resolutions of about 50 Megapixel on small format are not an archievement of the digital age; this was archieveable with low ISO film already. In fact some microfilms reached resolutions of the equivalent of Gigapixels on small format; these however wouldnt be used for regular photography. Of course they would not be used for regular photography. The resolution was measured in LP/MM under predominantly high frequency (bluish) light with perfect high-contrast targets. . Edited February 23, 2018 by pico Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
4X5B&W Posted February 25, 2018 Share #65 Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) While you might get a lot of people argue that the newest glass is the best ever, I rather agree with you. I have tried and owned some of the newer M glass, but ended up sticking with older lenses because the image quality of the older lenses was far more pleasing to me. All a matter of taste, of course. Two of my favourite lenses are a 50 Rigid Summicron (1956 vintage) AND a 28 Summaron (2017 vintage, but a reproduction of the classic 1958 design) that give wonderful images from my Monochrom MM1. So, what is creating these images that have not only wonderful tones and texture, but also amazing resolution from a 18MP sensor and older lens designs ? Leica is producing engineered optical design performance - rather than marketing driven number designs - like 50MP performance. Some people are surprised that one cannot see 50MP resolution performance, even shooting with a camera rated as such. One probably cannot extract 50MP performance out of the most rigid tripod available to the public......hand held shooting, don't go there !! Love my MM1 - such stunning performance even with vintage optical designs......that may JUST be higher resolution than people realise Edited February 25, 2018 by 4X5B&W 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colint544 Posted February 25, 2018 Share #66 Posted February 25, 2018 The 35mm Summaron F2.8 on the M Monochrom mk1 has stellar performance. To my eyes it is every bit as sharp and detailed as the 35mm Summilux ASPH FLE. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted February 25, 2018 Share #67 Posted February 25, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Two of my favourite lenses are a 50 Rigid Summicron (1956 vintage) AND a 28 Summaron (2017 vintage, but a reproduction of the classic 1958 design) that give wonderful images from my Monochrom MM1. So, what is creating these images that have not only wonderful tones and texture, but also amazing resolution from a 18MP sensor and older lens designs ? Leica is producing engineered optical design performance - rather than marketing driven number designs - like 50MP performance. Some people are surprised that one cannot see 50MP resolution performance, even shooting with a camera rated as such. One probably cannot extract 50MP performance out of the most rigid tripod available to the public......hand held shooting, don't go there !! Love my MM1 - such stunning performance even with vintage optical designs......that may JUST be higher resolution than people realise One lens I hang onto, the original 50mm Summicron R, 70s vintage, very clunky but still works, is my choice often on other cameras over most newer lenses sometimes. Discarded my higher end Canon lenses in favor of it when was shooting MK5. Was simply better and better resolution. Performance wise on the M, is nearly identical to 50mm Summicron v4, which is one of the three older M lenses I use on my monochrome. I had bought and owned for awhile the latest 35mm Summicron Aspherical, and the 50MM Summilux Aspherical, but didn’t like them at all on the monochrome. They were too cold and clinical for my tastes in images, how they rendered on the monochrome. Hard to explain. Sold them off. Maybe those work better in color? The monochrome brings out so much detail, to my eyes the strength of the older lenses is really better, vs something just off and unpleasant about the Aspherical. Many people get caught up arguing and favoring resolution, instead of the beauty or art or pleasing aspect of an image. Of course, all a matter of personal taste which will vary. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stump4545 Posted February 26, 2018 Share #68 Posted February 26, 2018 Anyone have any good guess is m10 monochrom is coming soon now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted February 26, 2018 Share #69 Posted February 26, 2018 Personally.....an improved CCD MM1 whether it be the size (as in even more compact than say a M4) or feature driven etc, would be a wonderful update to a "Classic" B&W image making device !! Love my MM1......such film like performance from a compact digital camera, thanks Leica !! I hear you. I wouldn't be interested in a B&W version of the M10 simply because it remains a CMOS sensor camera. Ever since the M8 I've contended that Leica CCD sensors produce images that are in a genre of their own, especially when it comes to skin tones, these just seem more true to life for me. I don't call this film like, it doesn't have to be film like, but it is closer to the pleasing tones of analogue photography than anything shot with a CMOS sensor. My current CMOS sensor camera is a Sony ARII, great camera, incredible resolution, but even those files converted to B&W leave me wanting when it comes to skin tones. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted February 26, 2018 Share #70 Posted February 26, 2018 Me thinks the CCD-based-sensor train long since left the station. Is there a lab anywhere in the world that continues to develop that technology? Regarding the (hoped for) upcoming M10-based Monochrom... it might be helpful to remember that in their first two versions Leica leveraged its then current color M as the base platform. Because of that, Monochrom development costs, while not trivial, were nevertheless kept well in check. A clean-sheet design could certainly be made. But its cost would almost certainly be prohibitive. And when you consider that the very narrow niche-within-a-niche market for a monochrome-M is already somewhat sated by the MM and M246... you're left wondering how many units Leica could sell? I certainly hope we'll see an M10-based Monochrom. But I think you'll see Unicorns dancing in your yard and pigs flying before you'll see one with a CCD-based sensor. Then again, I dismissed the original rumors of a black-and-white-only Leica M as a nutty idea. So what do I know?! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted February 26, 2018 Share #71 Posted February 26, 2018 Now that the M10 productions arrive to end of back orders, Leica may launch the next M. I hope that Leica is foolish enough to step forward on the M10 Monochrom and release in place M-D-10 (as Monochrom, no LCD screen, bigger battery than present M10). 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cldp Posted March 1, 2018 Share #72 Posted March 1, 2018 I'd live with no playback monitor but some form of LCD is necessary to see the histogram. The M246 Monochrom has utterly no recovery of clipped whites from the RAW file although it makes up for that with a remarkable ability to recover blacks. Exposing to the right just short of clipping has led to beautifully workable files. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted March 9, 2018 Share #73 Posted March 9, 2018 Me thinks the CCD-based-sensor train long since left the station. Is there a lab anywhere in the world that continues to develop that technology? Regarding the (hoped for) upcoming M10-based Monochrom... it might be helpful to remember that in their first two versions Leica leveraged its then current color M as the base platform. Because of that, Monochrom development costs, while not trivial, were nevertheless kept well in check. A clean-sheet design could certainly be made. But its cost would almost certainly be prohibitive. And when you consider that the very narrow niche-within-a-niche market for a monochrome-M is already somewhat sated by the MM and M246... you're left wondering how many units Leica could sell? I certainly hope we'll see an M10-based Monochrom. But I think you'll see Unicorns dancing in your yard and pigs flying before you'll see one with a CCD-based sensor. Then again, I dismissed the original rumors of a black-and-white-only Leica M as a nutty idea. So what do I know?! I suspect you're right about this, which doesn't make me happy, all the more reason why I hold onto my Monochrom Type I. My other camera is a SONY AR7II which took some getting used to because of all the technology bundled into that camera. I enjoy the fact that I can use it with Leica lenses. It renders excellent resolution and tones, and sometimes satisfying B&W conversions, but still not of the same "beauty" as my Monochrom Type I. So much is sacrificed when it comes to $$$ (profits) and since I am in the minority, the cash register will hardly notice I am there. I'm making my peace with this. Nothing in life is permanent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted March 9, 2018 Share #74 Posted March 9, 2018 Well said Wilfredo "nothing in life is permanent". The Buddhist Concept of Impermanence Anicca is in everything: https://www.urbandharma.org/udharma8/imperm.html If we can understand/think of anicca, our life would be easy . 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manicouagan1 Posted March 9, 2018 Share #75 Posted March 9, 2018 As for the question about whether or not work on ccd sensors continues take a look article from Leica Microsystems. https://www.leica-microsystems.com/science-lab/introduction-to-digital-camera-technology/ Granted the Microscope company is no longer connected to the Leica camera company but ccd sensor work continues in specialized applications. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted March 10, 2018 Share #76 Posted March 10, 2018 "Coming soon, the new Monochrom" , but first we have to clear some stock: https://lfi-online.de/ceemes/en/news/leica-m-monochrom-stealth-1005415.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted March 10, 2018 Share #77 Posted March 10, 2018 "Coming soon, the new Monochrom" , but first we have to clear some stock: https://lfi-online.de/ceemes/en/news/leica-m-monochrom-stealth-1005415.html We have a thread here with some opinions on this "Stealth" : https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/282519-new-leica-m-monochrom-typ-246-%E2%80%98stealth-edition%E2%80%99-with-fluorescent-highlights/ Yes I think so that Special Edition is to make room for a new comer. That a very good way for "clearance old stock". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted March 10, 2018 Share #78 Posted March 10, 2018 When I switched form M type 240 to M10 I fcertainly enjoyed the M10, but afterall have to say thats I found it not a huge step forward from the M 240. I sold the M10 again as long as prices were up (also to finance a x1d). So I dont think I would upgrade from my M246 to a M10M. ISO performance of M246 is as good and much better than I needIf money was unlimited yes, but I get to the point that going every generation Leica is like burning money. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted March 12, 2018 Share #79 Posted March 12, 2018 The We have a thread here with some opinions on this "Stealth" : https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/282519-new-leica-m-monochrom-typ-246-%E2%80%98stealth-edition%E2%80%99-with-fluorescent-highlights/ Yes I think so that Special Edition is to make room for a new comer. That a very good way for "clearance old stock". There is an obvious market for these meaningless gimmicks, somebody out there will be very happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnp1975 Posted March 31, 2018 Share #80 Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) I have put my name down the waitlist for the M10 Monochrom with my local Leica dealer today, can’t wait Edited March 31, 2018 by johnp1975 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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