For four years I have waited for this day which has not come

[jaapv]

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Yes, but an R8-like design does not have to be R8 size. The size was the reason I preferred the older R cameras. Even the R7 was at my tolerance limit.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Jeff S]

Doug Herr sure liked the Leicaflex...  http://photo.net/equipment/leica/leicaflex/

 

Jeff

[Leicaiste]

http://leicarumors.com/2016/09/22/invitation-for-world-preview-of-new-leica-cameras-on-september-30th-sent-out-in-singapore.aspx/

 

A new Leica to be announced in Singapore on September 30, 2016 ??

[jaapv]

Doug Herr sure liked the Leicaflex...  http://photo.net/equipment/leica/leicaflex/

 

Jeff

It was a magnificent camera, especially the viewfinder.

[Tailwagger]

Buyout by whom? It's not a publicly held company.

Cash is universal. My company wasn't public and it was bought. Happens every day.   

[adan]

The SL viewfinder "hump" has little to do with "a retro look" - although that may be a nice by-product, for some.

 

The "humps" on the SL - and Oly OM digitals, and Sony A7 series, and Fuji XT-1 - are there because it makes for a better viewfinder. Larger, clearer, less distorted, and "smoother" (less like an old TV screen).

 

There is still an advantage to a "big" internal LCD, magnified less, compared to a tiny LCD that then requires hefty magnification. (An EVF is just a very small LCD with a magnifier built-in).

 

The bigger the LCD panel, the more pixels that can be fitted in. Which makes for clarity and reduced pixelization (cf. EVFs from 5 or 10 years ago). A closer replica of a good ground-glass screen. There is still a lower limit to how small a pixel can be, in microns, and have all the necessary micro-circuitry to function.

 

The smaller the LCD, the more it has to be magnified by the eyepiece. And the more powerful the magnification, the more one gets distortion, color fringing and corner smearing. Unless the eyepiece gets larger (one step forward, one step back).

 

As top-end products, the cameras I listed before are built around having the best possible EVF with today's tech, and that means a bigger screen, bigger eyepiece optics - and a hump to contain them all. It's really just that simple.

 

http://briansmith.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Sony-a7RII-Tru-Finder.jpg

 

You won't fit one of those into the "M" form factor, without deleting something else.

[Tailwagger]

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In a nutshell: the M is the signature camera that defines the corporate image. Even if Leica had to produce it at break-even or a bearable loss, they could not afford to drop it.

 

Yeah... I have a tendency to run on sometimes. OTOH, gives you a chance to jump in and ram home the point. Teamwork.  

[adan]

Cash is universal. My company wasn't public and it was bought. Happens every day.   

 

Off the main topic, but since it came up - it's already happened. Blackstone Capital bought 44% of Leica in 2011. And arranged a change in CEO (Schofp > Kaltner). Dr. K remains Chairman and majority owner.

 

The only difference "not publicly held" makes is that there cannot be an unwanted, hostile, forced takeover via the stock exchange. But - if they want to - Dr. K and Blackstone can sell the whole thing to someone else tomorrow.

[LocalHero1953]

I neither owned nor had aspirations to own either a Leicaflex or one of the Rs. I am happy with the looks of the SL: as clean a design as you're likely to get with a large EVF and a large battery (and with a smaller battery and no integral grip there would be calls for an aftermarket one).

Beauty in a camera design is difficult to assess - most people call a camera beautiful when they like it for its performance, nostalgia etc. Frankly I don't see any cameras as beautiful (I prefer women ).

[M28]

Although hopefully not of some unfortunate lasses ass!

Oh no! The true spirit of the Polaroid camera was nude photography. If the sofort wants to trump the legacy of the Polaroid and say it's different, it's better, then let's see it prove it on the most beautiful of forms, the female body unclothed.

 

Who is going to win the first tasteful nude art photo with the Sofort and be officially known for now and evermore as the sofort nude legend!

[M28]

You made the conscious decision to waste 4 years waiting for something that was never guaranteed or even so much as implied by anyone from Leica.

No that's the wrong conclusion. There was humour in that original post.

It's true that I wanted a new m and was disappointed. It's true I am waiting for M240 prices to drop. Having said that if the new M was significantly lighter thinner and had significantly improved ISO I would probably just go and milk the stock exchange again and buy it.

[M28]

So the real disappointment is that you wanted to buy a used M240 and the prices haven't fallen, in part because there is no new M to replace the M240?

Even though the M240 allegedly had nothing to offer better than the M9?   And you expect sympathy here?

We live in the same universe but our positions are different.

 

If you walked a mile in my shoes you would think like me. If I walked in your shoes I would think like you.

Your reaction to my post is correct. Your reaction to my post is also incorrect.

Ain't that beautiful? That opinions are like backsides and we all have our own?

What's more who knows who's backside is truly perfect?

 

And that's why my friend, we need a sofort sub forum where a legend will arise to photograph the perfect female derrière. Because after all, it has been said a women is always right, especially when her husband is involved.

[M28]

When I am disappointed with a maker's offerings I switch to another.

I never fail to find a superior product.

I do not identify with the brand.

 

Why should you?

.

Et tu Pico

[M28]

My M9 arrived new with a horribly maladjusted rangefinder, which I calibrated myself to perfection.  Had my M9's rangefinder only been a wee bit out of calibration, I might not have realized it could be bettered, and then getting an M240 I might have believed there was some optomechanical improvement when in fact it was simply that more M240s left the factory in perfect alignment.  Also, I find the LED-lit framelines a distraction, becoming more so as the ambient light level drops.  I absolutely despise the red lines.  I wish Leica would have allowed for user choice of line brightess as they do for display brightness.  

 

As for the difference in IQ and noise, I didn't say there wasn't any difference, just not much.  It's not a quantum leap.  Alone it would not have been a compelling reason for me to upgrade.  But since you bring up the subject of jpeg vs DNG, the M240's jpeg quality is the other thing besides the quietness that made the upgrade totally worth it to me.  To finally be able to choose whether to shoot and process DNG is, to me, a sign that Leica finally got their act together and is justifyied calling the M240 a professional camera.  Because a lot more pros than you think shoot jpegs.

 

And as I have stated many times, I shot DNG for all the years I owned an M8 and then M9, because I had no other choice, their jpeg output was so inconsistent as to be untrustable and unusable.  In those years I became very skilled at PP, first with C1 and then LR.  I am not some incompetent tyro.  Before I bought an M240 I tested it extensively compared to the M9 shooting DNG, the only file format the M9 can capably produce.  And there was some improvement in noise, but by comparison to the benchmark set at the time by C*** and N*** it was nothing to crow about.  Other improvements in IQ were incremental at best.   

 

But I bought a second M240, which I never felt like I wanted to do with either the M8 or M9.  The improvements in quiet operation and the ability to choose to shoot jpeg when the occasion warrants were dealmakers for me.

 

Nice write up of your experience. It's interesting what was important to your workflow.

[M28]

If that truly is the case unless the company can be profitable producing the SL at the $3-4K level, then failing a takeover/buyout by one of the major players, Leica, as  a camera manufacturer is likely dead. Professionals are far more price sensitive than well-healed consumers. If a Leica provides advantages that result in more money, then fine but businesses don't stay in business very long by overspending on tools when lesser cost ones will satisfy their customer base just as well.  How many pros will elect to drop $5300 on a 50mm 1.4 prime?  Some sure, but is there really a larger market there than with continuing to cultivate M customers? Unless the M faithful cave and follow move to SL land as well, I find it very difficult to see how they will prosper with this strategy. And as far as MF goes, they certainly today are not a leader, either in reputation or product, in that market.  And despite its small size, it is a market that is becoming increasing more competitive with mirrorless offerings from Fuji and HBlad.  Can Sony be far behind?  Had the SL been MF to begin with, perhaps, but they are late to the party and those users dont tend to switch systems all that often.  

 

Not saying you might not be spot on regarding what they're thinking, but I dont see this as a successful strategy. Leica survived by hanging its future on what can only be seen in the broader context as a boutique product for connoisseurs and radicals that bridged the emotional experience of shooting film into the digital age. The M has stuck, it has a following. The jury may still be out on the Q/SL, but regardless of how you view the worth of the X and T lines as tools for photographic expression, AFAICT they certainly havent succeeded at positioning themselves as the pinnacle APS-C camera that everyone who values compactness aspires to own someday.   The M is Leica, whether they leica it or not (sorry couldnt resist). They can no more leave RF, be it EV,  optical or hybrid based, off the development list than Porsche can give up on a rear engine 911.

 

As long as Leica makes cameras like the M and SL , devoid of thousands of fiddly options, hundreds of menu screens and those nearly perfect optics that don't loose value, they are going to be ahead.

 

Why everybody has not dumped their nikons and canons and bought the SL , that is the real mystery.

[Stuart Richardson]

I still have an M9 (not often used these days) and the S006 (used, but a little less as I am shooting 4x5 and 6x7 black and white for projects right now), and the Sony A7S for video. I am a bit disappointed in Photokina because I haven't gotten exactly what I wanted. I realize that my needs are different than others, but basically, if Leica wants me to purchase a new camera from them, I would like a few things to change.

1. Resolution is a problem. Right now Leica is the lowest resolution medium format manufacturer, and even the lowest resolution pro 35mm manufacturer...basically all the other brands have cameras that clearly out-resolve the Leica M, SL and S cameras. Many of them also outperform them in high ISO as well. Leica has the clear advantage in ergonomics and in lens quality, but their sensor tech (as is often the case) is behind the rest of the field. A lot of people do not care about this so much, as 24-37mp is a lot and quite good for many purposes. Personally, and again, I know that not everyone is in this boat, I DO use this resolution. My last two shows featured photos from the S at 1mX1.5m, and while they look very good, they are only 120dpi at that size, and they clearly are losing detail. The M9 photos from this series can only go to about 60x90cm before they really get stretched. In both cases, this is without cropping, which exacerbates the issues. The fact that the S007 stayed at 37mp was a big disappointment to me, and the fact that another milestone has passed without a resolution upgrade for the S is a bummer for me. I bought into it before the D800 came out, and at the time it was a truly substantial gain in resolution and image quality over the competition, something which helped justify its very high price. Now it has been nearly 5 or 6 years without having gotten a resolution upgrade. The lenses can certainly handle it, as can the tolerances of the system. Meanwhile, every other manufacturer has sailed passed Leica and the used prices have crashed making it very hard to leave without taking a huge loss. I would love it if they would just bring it up to date. This is more than just keeping up with the Joneses...sensor technology has advanced dramatically since the S system started, and now we should be able to have our cake and eat it too...a 60mp+ sensor with good ISO performance, great color depth and live view/video is not out of the realm of possibility at all given existing technology, Leica just needs to give it to us! 

 

2. I would love to get rid of the A7S and replace it with something like the SL, but unfortunately the A7S still seems to be a better video camera...I don't really care about high ISO much for stills, but it is impossible to take video at night without it, and the A7S truly opens up new worlds on the video front. That said, if an SL or SL2 could do what the A7S does at ISO 40,000 (i.e. film in moonlight with moderate grain), I would go for it in a heartbeat. And yes, again, I know this is not for everyone, but I am doing a series of videos for an exhibition next year, and all the videos are taken at night, so it is a requirement. 

 

So, those are my pet peeves. Now leave me alone...I have sheet film holders to load!! 

[Jeff S]

Stuart, regarding #1, you just need to exhibit in larger rooms, with guests roped off farther away.

 

More seriously, at least you have very specific practical reasons for your wishes.....not like a lot of folks who never even print, let alone exhibit.

 

The good news, though, is that you do have many choices these days, even if not Leica.  Good times for photographers....and printers.

 

Jeff

[Jon Warwick]

I'm probably in a similar camp to Stuart. I also shoot images for very large output, which I fully admit is very unusual these day.

I'm keeping my M240 for the web or for prints to 30x20", and for handheld stuff it's still my favorite camera of all time ......but it's back to 5x4 due to its enormous resolution for the serious (and large printed) stuff. Top lenses (super symmar XL or rodenstock s) combined with a 1gb drum scan of Acros 100, and the native output gives me 70" prints that are barely breaking sweat. I think the sheer size of a 5x4 "sensor" is less demanding on the image chain, given it's just a 14x enlargement factor for a 70" whopper of a print.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[kenf]

The Leica M10 aka M240 was announced 4 years ago and released about 3.5 years ago. I was disappointed that it was such a minor improvement on the M9 and yet the price escalated dramatically.

I was delighted at the arrival of the M APO-Summicron 50mm f2. and waited for a much improved iso camera that was not the M240 with a big sensor full of megapixels so that I could see wall sized photographs using my projector.

I have been waiting patiently for Photokina 2016 to see the new M and to order it. and what did I get?

I got offered a sofort

A glorified Polaroid camera.

WHY, WHY LEICA ? Why do you do this to me?

You used PHOTOKINA to announce a camera that was used primarily to photograph nudie shots that you never had to send to the labs for developing.

Champion move.

Funny, because meanwhile these last several years many, many people have been using their M240 series cameras to make very satisfying work - and you could have been, too.

 

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

[ramarren]

Celebrate the fact there's no replacement for the M240, if the money's burning a hole, buy a new (or second hand) lens, photography books or pay for tuition. The current model M240 is more than capable for 99.9%, wait until you've outgrown it, then think again.

 

 

Whatever money I might have set aside for a new M, or Hasselblad X1D, or new lens for the SL has gone into buying a new car—because my old car was wrecked two weeks ago. Frankly, I like this: the M-D and SL are quite good enough for anything I want to do photographically, and taking pleasure in doing other things—like taking a nice drive to the coast, or to visit friends in the north or east—inspires me to just use the cameras I have more. 

 

I've tracked the happenings at Photokina somewhat distantly this year. It all seems so remote and irrelevant; I have so little need or desire to be on the bleeding edge of equipment nowadays. And that's because the M-D and SL really are that good, that satisfying to use, and they both produce such beautiful photos.

 

There is such a thing as enough.