For four years I have waited for this day which has not come

[MarkP]

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I'm pleased that the new M wasn't released although there are a number of improvements I'd like to see.

No retail pressure/GAS.

 

I can just hang onto my Monochrome v1 and M240, and enjoy using what I have.

Unless I decide to venture into medium format 

Edited September 21, 2016 by MarkP

[Jon Pop]

Ah yes...the annual Photokina 'Leica has disappointed me because they aren't announcing the camera of my own dreams' comments, to add to this Forum's regular traffic on the topic (I swear it seems half the Forum is occupied by traffic about Leica announcements or the lack of them).  There is such a myriad of possibilities as to features in digital cameras now, it's pretty unrealistic to expect any camera (but particularly a real rangefinder) to cover all the high points, and more, of the competition. One person's list of preferred features isn't the same as another. Even in the supposed most popular DSLRs or mirrorless. Sony has some great performance, for example, with the a7...they also have some dumb shit like 'smile detection mode' and GameBoy menus that add zero value. I also think it's way off base to expect any still cameras with what is essentially added-on video capability to match a purpose-built video camera such as a Red or an Arri. That's like saying a two-seater car 'fails for not having the same features and carrying capacity as a Land Rover'. And then we have the sensor debates; size, rendering, megapixels ('Sony's new sensor is 42 or whatever...what's wrong with Leica??'). And the viewfinder ('why won't Leica have the hybrid VF of the fuji??'). And the laughable criticisms about lenses ('Why won't they make AF for the M?').

 

People have a lot of choices within the Leica digital lineup, as they do with Nikon, Sony, Canon...I think the expectations around the dream list of features for the M in particular are kind of ridiculous; some include wishing for AF and burst mode equivalent to the Nikon D4s ('because the M needs to be better for long distance sports photography and can't compete'). I continue to be perplexed by desires for the M 'to be more like the Canon 5d'. To those who say that, I say "Buy one...and then complain on the Canon forums about your disappointments in their products too".   I certainly don't want things like sensor corrosion, or buffers that fail, I'd like some better ISO without banding, etc. So I don't let Leica off the hook on that one...but I don't want my film Leicas  or any film camera to have a jammed film advance or stuck shutter either. But I'm not wringing my hands waiting for a mirrorless M/Live view/RED cam/AF/42mp. I could care less about the 'tech race' that has turned photography into the consumer electronics business. It's all the same now...debates about digital camera features are in the exact same category as iPhone announcements and features, with about the same level of utility I might add.  

 

The M is the M...even within Leica's lineup, much less across the digital camera spectrum in total. People always expect a big overhaul...the constant chatter about the '3 year product cycle' now implanted in our heads. Realistically, what do we think they'll announce next time with the M? They've made tweaks during the time of the 240...bigger buffer (MP), mono, different shutter (262), no screen (MD). Oh...but that's right...these are just 'special editions' apparently. We need to accept the fact that the M itself is reaching a plateau.  We can always tweak performance like 'a better sensor in the next version', or 'a bit thinner body'. But that's performance of EXISTING functions. If we're waiting for a long list of additional features and capabilities that Sony and Fuji and Canon have with hybrid VF or fast AF  and so forth, I'd suggest we just buy those cameras. We've added live view to the M (and all that accompanies it). We've added video. We've increased the buffer. Whether the live view is as GOOD as someone else's isn't relevant since that's comparing entirely different camera systems. It's like complaining about the 5d not having a built-in EVF when it's a DSLR....a meaningless and pointless argument (back to my sports car vs. SUV analogy).

 

As for the Sofort....who cares? If it sells like the Fuji Instax, more power to them. And if some people realize that photos can actually be held in your hand rather than just being a collection of ones and zeros on Facebook, a blog or a homepage, I'm fine with it. Since it's been years since people realized that photography doesn't actually just mean lists of comparative camera features or having built-in wifi. If you need those things that's fine...but a company doesn't just exist to upgrade their digital features as outlined on Forums and blogs.  Another annoying thing...everyone getting upset because they feel that 'releasing the Sofort takes away valuable time and investment in making the better sensor I've dreamed about'. Same as the critique of the MD ('how dare they make a digital M with no screen....when they could have spent all that time and resource designing the M that would meet my own personal list'?). 

 

Because I shoot three film Leicas and two digital Leicas, I see both sides of the digital vs. film debate. In the creation of a final product, there are benefits and limits to both, there's no free lunch, there's always trade-offs in everything. But my biggest disappointment with digital isn't whether 'film looks better'...it's that it has absolutely and totally plagued photography discussions with micro-debates about pixel sizes, features announcements comparing number of dots on a screen, constant upgrades where even today's 'dream camera' lauded by the 'community' as the new Second Coming is then treated like 'embarrassing junk, full of limitations' within a week of its announcement. While we all get on the heroin-like addiction of waiting for the next impressive announcement. And the next. And the next. 

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[Jon]

It seems to me that nothing major has been released by Leica at Photokina for several years. The two biggest releases recently of the Q and SL were not done at Photokina. Think about all of the publicity they received for both of those cameras by releasing them on their own and away from the hype of that show. It just seems as if things are "too" quiet right now and makes me think that something big is on the way...

[ramarren]

The low light on M240 slightly improved but far behind Nikon, pixels improved but far behind Nikon, the rangefinder greatly improved but hopefully can do better. Not really good video, expected way better. Heavier camera, thicker camera. Picture quality initially was criticised many people still like the m9 look more and some even prefer the M8 look better but like me did not appreciate lack of full frame. It was not much improved.

 

 

I couldn't care less how "far behind Nikon" the M typ 240/246/262 might be. I have a Nikon D750, I have M-P typ 240, I have M-D typ 262, and SL typ 601. The three Leicas make photos that are so much nicer than the D750, and work so much more the way I want, that I haven't touched the D750 in almost a year.

 

So much bellyaching because Leica decided to give the kids a little fun and produced an Instax instant film camera. Sheesh. Frankly, if you can't make world class photographs with any of Leica's current Ms, the problem is not with the camera. 

[jdlaing]

Lyrics from an old song that fit your grief:

 

Gloom despair and agony on me.....

Deep dark depression excessive misery.......

It it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all.......

Gloom despair and agony on me.

[Jeffry Abt]

The release of the Sofort was ok with me. I've actually thought of buying one! I think my grown daughters would love me snapping shots of the grandkids and then seeing them  instantaneously. 

Yet I am waiting expectantly for the next M!

Edited September 21, 2016 by Jeffry Abt

[zlatkob]

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Actually, Nikon is still quite behind Leica in developing a digital rangefinder camera and a system of rangefinder lenses.

 

And the M240 had a dramatically improved shutter sound over the noisy shutter of the M9.  And there was no price increase at all.  

 

And then there was the significant price drop with the introduction of the M262 version.

[sml_photo]

 

 

What is the hurry to "upgrade"? If an upgrade it will be. Many of us are in no hurry at all to replace the M240. I strongly suspect that the successor will be more slanted to attract new users to the system than to get present owners to trade their cameras in.

 

 

BRAVO!!!

[scaryink]

There is no digital projector that comes close to the resolution of even the m8.  If you want to project large images in the highest resolution, shoot film.

 

[thighslapper]

Consumer product purchasing is a life of unremitting disappointment interspersed with tiny periods of joy.

 

Waiting for the next Leica model which will be better ... usually ..... and often not by much ...... is futile.

 

You either need the camera that is available now, in which case, buy it, or sit patiently dreaming of some mythical wundercamera that may never appear .... or be superseded almost immediately by the competition. 

 

Such is life. Don't blame Leica. 

 

You can tell by what Leica has done with the T, Q and SL what is likely to be in the next M ....... and for it to remain an 'M' the changes are not going to be ground-breaking ..... just incremental. 

Edited September 21, 2016 by thighslapper

[JonPB]

Death, broken hearts, and empty bottles are legitimate causes for grief and despair. Not cameras, not with the embarrassment of photographic riches that surrounds us.

 

Yet I, too, sometimes feel that disappointment. I think this comes from the highly pleasurable illusion that art should be easy, and that the right camera or lens can make it so. But reality is entirely different. The history of photography is one of overcoming technical limitations through ingenuity and determination. The history of all art, really. So, I take a moment to re-frame my mental context by admiring the work -- and respecting the tribulations -- of other photographers. This inspires me, in Tennyson's words, "to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."

 

All the best,

Jon

[semi-ambivalent]

Lyrics from an old song that fit your grief:

 

Gloom despair and agony on me.....

Deep dark depression excessive misery.......

It it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all.......

Gloom despair and agony on me.

The Internet is killing the importance of the 'Big Event' method of marketing. In addition I think Leica, not being in a race to the bottom (or, the length of the feature list), can announce at a time and place of their choosing, as befits a company as unique as they say they and their products are. I don't care. I'll keep shooting my Ms, a camera so perfect at its introduction it has been EoL for sixty years, and going.

 

BR549,

s-a

[jonatdonuts]

I like you M28. Good sense of humour. 

 

Jon Pop also raises some good points. I agree in a sense. And I'm still searching for a digital camera that would be perfect for my own needs, rather than push the limits of technological specifications in relation to the competition. 

 

However, M28 touched on a very relevant and saddening point: Leica's marketing team has really let itself down. Again. 

 

Leica's Photokina marketing message: Leica will be focusing on the professional. 

 

Interesting...

 

Reality:  Leica releases as its only camera what is (essentially) a rebadged fuji instax at twice the price. 

 

Colossal disappointment...

 

Previously I would have given the 2016 marketing failure award to Nikon for featuring a Fuji X100 on one of its posters, and handing out an award to a blatant photoshopping fraud. But now I think Leica just took the biscuit with its sortof camera release, usage of canon cameras to shoot its sortof commercials, and relationship with Huawei that was bold but poorly communicated. 

 

 

 

 

 

[pico]

Reality:  Leica releases as its only camera what is (essentially) a rebadged fuji instax [...]

 

Let's wait and see, It ain't over till it's over.

Edited September 21, 2016 by pico

[thighslapper]

 

 

Colossal disappointment...

 

Previously I would have given the 2016 marketing failure award to Nikon for featuring a Fuji X100 on one of its posters, and handing out an award to a blatant photoshopping fraud. But now I think Leica just took the biscuit with its sortof camera release, usage of canon cameras to shoot its sortof commercials, and relationship with Huawei that was bold but poorly communicated. 

 Actually ...... as posted elsewhere, Leica rarely release headline products at Photokina, and with all the big guns there it is likely anything would be swamped by their competitors products anyway. 

 

..... and there is no point announcing something 9 months before you can release it .... and when it has only been half tested ........ as it just ends up annoying people who wait endlessly ..... as Leica have found out to their cost in the past. 

 

Being low volume producers they have their own specific issues that make product release rather more risky and difficult compared to the big brands.

Edited September 21, 2016 by thighslapper

[EdwardM]

I do believe that LEICA has strong reason for no new M on photokina.
 

[adan]

The Leica M10 aka M240 was announced 4 years ago and released about 3.5 years ago. I was disappointed that it was such a minor improvement on the M9 and yet the price escalated dramatically.

I was delighted at the arrival of the M APO-Summicron 50mm f2. and waited for a much improved iso camera that was not the M240 with a big sensor full of megapixels so that I could see wall sized photographs using my projector.

 

M9 price at introduction - $US6995.

M(240) price at introduction - $US6950.

 

M240 cost $50 LESS than M9 at intro. Now, it's possible that at the end of the M9 run, the price was dropped through rebates or otherwise in a "clearance sale." Just as the M240 is currently listed as $6595 ($400 price break) at the big US stores.

 

"Much improved iso camera....full of megapixels" - better study some physics; there is a mutual incompatability between more (i.e. smaller area) pixels and improved ISO performance. Check out the ISO performance of the Canon 5DRS or Nikon D810 or Sony A7RII - compared to the regular Canon 5DIII, Nikon D5, and Sony A7s. You want improved ISO? Stick with ~20 Mpixels (or only 12, in the case of the Sony 7s).

 

As to Leica vs Nikon technology.... the more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

Nikon's first aperture-priority AE SLR - Nikkormat EL, 1972; first AP AE professional SLR, F3, 1982.

Leica's first aperture-priority AE M rangefinder - M7, 2002

 

You want 2016 Nikon tech in a Leica M? Just buy your new M in 2036-2046.

 

As to the Sofort - Leica's been re-badging other people's consumer cameras for decades. The C11 APS camera, or the many FujiLeica and PanaLeica digitals. Precisely because it allows them to avoid expending much R&D money or brain-power on that end of the market. Leaving more for developing the next M - whenever it appears.

[Tailwagger]

Personally, I'm not disappointed at all. While its true there are certainly aspects of the 240 family that are deserving of a refresh, the good news is that my M is the same camera today that it was two days ago, and so remains my favorite tool of all time for making photographs.  If there's any emotion at all, its more like relief. No need to decide if a new next gen M is worth the $$$, no decision making around keep the 240 as a backup, another year's budget can be devoted to expanding my lens collection, a lifetime investment rather than a three to five year one in a new body and, of course, if another year passes, the next gen will hopefully be that much more capable than the last making the value proposition far stronger.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Tailwagger

[bencoyote]

The Leica M10 aka M240 was announced 4 years ago and released about 3.5 years ago. I was disappointed that it was such a minor improvement on the M9 and yet the price escalated dramatically.

I was delighted at the arrival of the M APO-Summicron 50mm f2. and waited for a much improved iso camera that was not the M240 with a big sensor full of megapixels so that I could see wall sized photographs using my projector.

 

So your two big complaints are ISO limits and the number of pixels?

 

I do a lot of night photography - like really in the dark. What limit do you actually run into with your photography that couldn't be fixed with a Noctilux or even a Summilux? What I actually find is that I can't see to focus and must use tricks like use a flashlight to focus when I don't have enough light to take a picture at f/1.4 ISO3200 and 1/15s (the best that I can do handheld with a 50mm). In the cases when you can't get the shot in low light, is it really the camera's fault? Are you really limited by ISO or are you limited by your ability as a photographer? When I ask myself that question, most of the time I find that it really isn't the camera it is me. e.g.  https://goo.gl/photos/sRjXBBZkYX5hrwPm7 where my illumination was a single flashing LED.

 

There are no projectors that I'm aware of which can directly display on a wall at the resolution of that the M240 takes pictures at. If you are seeing pixels, then they are the fault of the projector not the fault of the camera. At work to visualize very high resolution data we need to use things like https://str.llnl.gov/str/October04/Ahern.html So what is the problem that you are actually having with the 24MP M240?

 

Printing things out wall sized, that may be a different matter. However, there are algorithms built into post processing programs that make even images captured on a smart phone suitable for billboards. It comes down to using the right technique rather than a limitation of the camera.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[bocaburger]

I upgraded from M9 to M240.  I do not find the IQ or ISO noise that much improved.  I do not see any improvement in clarity or accuracy or reliability of the rangefinder.  I learned to live without the frameline lever.  I detest the LED-lit frame line display.  I have never used the video mode or Live View on the LCD, and only rarely the EVF (although I have come to appreciate not having to lug a Visoflex when traveling).  I find that although it's not really bigger or much heavier than the M9, the little thumb wheel on the rear of the top plate changed my grip hand position enough that the camera feels much thicker and heavier. 

 

All that said, not having that assinine whirr after every shot was worth the entire price of admission.  Finally on the 3rd try Leica got a digital M to be as quiet as an entry-level consumer-grade Canikon DSLR and almost as quiet as a film M.   At this point Leica would really need to wow me to get me to upgrade further.  And any hybrid electronic tinkering with the rangefinder would cement my insistence on remaining at the M240.