Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[ski542002]

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I've been enjoying reading this post since sometime early in 2016.  Time flies by!

 

If I lease the 'Blad or the Fuji, my SL will be a capable complement alongside either of those two MF systems; not an either-or proposition.  If one shoots professionally the decision to choose between the X1D or the SL is shortsighted IMO.  A well-heeled prosumer's decision is biased towards prestige and esoteric status-driven price points. The more meaningful comparison should be between the X1D & the GFX50; leaf vs focal plane, lens options, 3rd party lens options with adapters, how well does the Nikon (X1d), and Fuji speedlight function?  Focus speed and TTL flash accuracy for each in challenging lighting conditions. Are the extra MP and DR noticeable to a specific client mix.  Can billable jobs justify 4 years of lease payments to cover the cost of a $20,000+ system that might be obsolete in 4 years? This is a Leica forum, so I guess that won't happen.  Possibly another forum would be a more meaningful option

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[gpwhite]

The way I read this blog post is that he complains about the gallery system of selling fine art, feeling it curbs expression through commercialism, rather than against specific photographers.

 

Yes, Jaap has it right. At least this was Ming's explanation in person. He is intrigued by curation, which is surely distinct from gallery marketing.

 

Ming has a lot to say about a lot of things, so he predictably elicits reactions from all quarters.

[ramarren]

I think we should change the title of this thread to "psychoanalysis of a new hire at Hasselblad without direct interaction" ...

[jaapv]

Yes, Jaap has it right. At least this was Ming's explanation in person. He is intrigued by curation, which is surely distinct from gallery marketing.

 

Ming has a lot to say about a lot of things, so he predictably elicits reactions from all quarters.i

In fact, even though the post does read a bit like sour grapes, I do think he has a valid point.

Not that it is a recent point - the controversy beween the starving artist vs the successful society painter has alway been present. I don't think it has much to do with the quality of art in general, though. Van Gogh was churchmouse poor for most of his life, Rembrandt ran a polished commercial enterprise.

[gpwhite]

I think we should change the title of this thread to "psychoanalysis of a new hire at Hasselblad without direct interaction" ...

 

, speak for your own lack of interaction with the principals on this critically important topic. Besides, you know that psychoanalysis was a wonderful marketing scheme in the pre-Oprah era, but it is not a therapeutic technique supported by science.

 

Yet, it is more interesting than the Fake Presidency we are enduring over here. We need something material like the dust up between Nicola, Angela and Theresa.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I have looked at a lot of Ming's picture essays, read his reviews before he was affiliated with Hasselblad, as well as some of his philosophical essays,  I can see what he is responding to in some of his pictures, and I chose a widely understood psychological term to describe his style.  I think it is accurate.  My visual thinking has that flavor too, at times.

 

scott 

[Paul J]

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I think people are being a bit hard on Ming here. I take a look at his blog from time to time and I've found him to be a genuinely good guy, helpful and a dedicated person. Comments about his work and/or his dreams and thwarted ambitions are, I think, a bit unfair. All I will say is he has publicly divulged his personal feelings on the matter in a way that I would never do, nor advise. It reads like an emotional reaction to difficult news, news that is not a denial, only that work needs to be done on his art. That is news that most artists hear from someone, at some point in their career especially so in the beginning. But that is his choice to voice his feelings. He has said it himself, he takes pictures of things he likes, and that to me is all that matters because the path of an artist is a journey of discovery and it is different for everyone - but one that I think it is best kept away from public blogs.

 

I think his appointment, while surprising, is a great sign for a company that most people were starting to worry about. It would be a different situation if chief of strategy was a Drone Pilot.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Paul J

[meerec]

I think people are being a bit hard on Ming here. I've found him to be a genuinely good guy, very helpful and a very dedicated person. Comments about his work and/or his dreams and thwarted ambitions are, I think, a bit unfair. All I will say is he has divulged an amount of his personal feelings on the matter in a way, and publicly, that I would never do, nor advise. It reads like an emotional reaction to difficult news, news that is not a denial, rather only that work needs to be done on his art. That is news that most artists hear from someone, at some point in their career. But that is his choice. He has said it himself, he takes pictures of things he likes, and that to me is all that matters because the path of an artist is a journey of discovery and it is different for everyone - but one that I think it is best kept away from public blogs.

 

I think his appointment, while surprising, is a great sign for a company that most people were starting to worry about. It would be a different situation if chief of strategy was a Drone Pilot.

 

 

It would be a different (and bad) situation if the chief of strategy was a drone (or robot).

 

Ming had three attempts to leave the corporate world and make a living from photography. This must have really humbled him over time, and made stronger; especially with a young family to look after. I think he's a down to earth guy and can inspire some. I'm not a big fan of his photography as art but I respect what he's done so far for photographic community at large, and his genuine friendliness with everyone.

[caissa]

I think this discussion took a strange turn, in that mostly the person is discussed. We know not enough about him to do that. And even if we knew anything negative, we should give him a chance.

More important is the question if it was the appropriate thing to do for Hasselblad in the current situation.

And I still think such a small company with such an awful (sorry) firmware/software has more important tasks to do before thinking what should be the future (10 years ?) strategy.

In 2015 their revenue was about 20-30 Million dollar (I do only know the sum in "Swedish crowns", which is visible in the stock report.) So either their revenue explodes or with a similar revenue in 2016 they have to fight for survival.

This sum is about the same amount that Leica spends on research (actually Leica spends more). And Leica is only a very small player.

 

They made the bold decision to develop the X1D, they even succeeded in producing it more or less in time (at least in the same year) with many of the features announced. So they have a strategy that was invented by a clever CEO or another person in a leading position. Most agree that this is a clever strategy - at least much cleverer than the rebranded Sonys.

But the product is still not perfect, and this should be the first priority - to improve the X1D asap, so that it really becomes a professional tool. And the main weaknesses lie in the firmware. As everybody loves the well known sensor.

And only after that the big question is the next step - the upgrade of the X1D to an even higher resolution. And the cooperation with other technologies (maybe drones etc.) And this is probably strategic, but not only from a photographic standpoint, but also from a technology standpoint.

Somebody mentioned that he is glad that they did not choose any guy with an MBA, but what else is Ming ? Certainly no technology guru. But this is the wrong discussion again, so I stop it.

Edited March 31, 2017 by caissa

[Belle123]

I think this discussion took a strange turn, in that mostly the person is discussed. We know not enough about him to do that. And even if we knew anything negative, we should give him a chance.

More important is the question if it was the appropriate thing to do for Hasselblad in the current situation.

And I still think such a small company with such an awful (sorry) firmware/software has more important tasks to do before thinking what should be the future (10 years ?) strategy.

In 2015 their revenue was about 20-30 Million dollar (I do only know the sum in "Swedish crowns", which is visible in the stock report.) So either their revenue explodes or with a similar revenue in 2016 they have to fight for survival.

This sum is about the same amount that Leica spends on research (actually Leica spends more). And Leica is only a very small player.

No one that has a X1d is saying it is 'awful'. Good grief! The firmware is alright and does what is supposed to do. If it falls short, needs some more features but it gets the job done. It's slow, but shooting medium format isn't about speed. I am amazed at the misinformation and opinions. When the Leica T was released, it was far more buggy. In time those bugs got fixed and I fully expect Hasselblad will be fleshing out the X1d firmware.

[ramarren]

Gads.

 

My plan of record remains true: I would like the X1D to be, finally, my "digital SWC". I await the 22mm lens. Now that Hasselblad has announced the 120 Macro, I'll add that to my list. I'm already working on how to fund the purchase.

 

I really don't care very much whether someone I don't know considers Hasselblad to be "awful" or not. I don't even know whether that person has ever touched a Hasselblad. I have and use my Hasselblads, even if only occasionally now, and am delighted to see them innovating with the X1D and their other products. Hiring some fresh blood with all his unique insights and foibles will help make them stronger, I believe. For good or ill, we cannot judge what he does, or how Hasselblad fares as a result, until we give them some time to go at it.

 

Now can we please stop with the bullshit and return to a discussion of cameras and their uses?

[wattsy]

Now can we please stop with the bullshit and return to a discussion of cameras and their uses?

 

 

Why don't you lead the way? All you seem to do is remind us of your plan to buy an X1D and 22mm to be your "digital SWC". I think I prefer to read the "bullshit".

[ramarren]

Chatter away then, Wattsy. I won't be listening to you. 

[Chaemono]

Please, guys. Can we all just get along?

[Joshua Lowe]

I'm not going to speculate on Ming's inner thoughts regarding his own stature as a photographer but I will echo his sentiments about the world of art sales.  A close friend of mine appraises art and antiques for an auction house.  There is a whole lot of pumping and dumping in the art world.  And getting "pumped" often comes down to connections rather than talent.

 

In short: the art world's not a meritocracy.  

[almoore]

I think this discussion took a strange turn, in that mostly the person is discussed. We know not enough about him to do that. And even if we knew anything negative, we should give him a chance...I still think such a small company with such an awful (sorry) firmware/software has more important tasks to do before thinking what should be the future...

Ming Thein, despite having a low profile as a photographer, has successfully built a business selling workshops and workflow guides to amateur photographers. Along the way, he's regaled us with us with his views on cameras/lenses, shown us his extensive collection of blingy watches, smoked the occasional expensive cigar, displayed his bitterness towards those who don't see him as an artist and made clear that he believes he's an unacknowledged 'great'. We're discussing the person because the personality is far more interesting than the bland images.

 

It's intriguing and impressive that a small time regional photographer has managed to create such a high profile for himself, but it's inevitable that somebody who has created a cult of personality will be discussed on a personal level.

 

Regarding the allegedly 'awful software/firmware' of Hasselblad, I'm not sure why you believe that's the case. Hasselblad has a recent history of creating very solid and practical products. They're a niche player but highly credible, and it makes perfect sense for them to be planning for a long term future.

Edited April 1, 2017 by almoore

[Peter H]

I get the feeling that a lot of people here talk about the X1D in the same way athat a lot of DSLR users talk about Leicas.

 

They concentrate on all the things it doesn't do as well as their DSLR does, and conclude that it is therefore a deeply flawed camera. They are mistaken because they've lost sight of the things it does so well.

 

In the case of the X1D, it delivers in a highly portable package a beautiful sensor that can deliver results that are definitively different from those available from smaller sensors. it is different from the Fuji offering too, perhaps in the way that a Leica M is different from something like a Fuji X-Pro in MF mode; you're down to small differences that amount to a great deal to some users and not others.

 

I should have thought Leica users, having learned that "it's no Nikon" is not necessarily a bad thing, would be more sympathetic to Hasselblad's attempts to offer something interesting and attractive and maybe be less negative about everything a small company does that's a bit different from the purely conventional, or perhaps not quite up to top speed, and a little more tolerant of the costs that come with a slightly different approach.

[IkarusJohn]

Wrapping that sensor in such a lovely compact body, redolent of the 500 series Hasselblads of yore, remains very attractive.

 

The reservation for me (cost and firmware bugs aside) is that this is a new system, requiring larger lenses and different photography. 35mm is a very mature format, with high quality and reasonably compact lenses, resulting in images with framing, speeds and depth of field I'm familiar and comfortable with. Switching to the X1D is not about lag in the EVF or technical gear discussions for me, so much as rethinking my photography because of the consequences of the different format.

 

APS-C didn't work for me (I couldn't get the results I wanted), the 50c sensor will inevitably bring slower photography, tripods, larger gear and just ... something different. I'm not sure I'm ready for that.

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[Peter H]

Wrapping that sensor in such a lovely compact body, redolent of the 500 series Hasselblads of yore, remains very attractive.

 

The reservation for me (cost and firmware bugs aside) is that this is a new system, requiring larger lenses and different photography. 35mm is a very mature format, with high quality and reasonably compact lenses, resulting in images with framing, speeds and depth of field I'm familiar and comfortable with. Switching to the X1D is not about lag in the EVF or technical gear discussions for me, so much as rethinking my photography because of the consequences of the different format.

 

APS-C didn't work for me (I couldn't get the results I wanted), the 50c sensor will inevitably bring slower photography, tripods, larger gear and just ... something different. I'm not sure I'm ready for that.

I can understand that though I don't share the feeling myself.

 

And I'm not at all sure that you'd have to use a tripod when you don't want to. I maintain that f4 is not too slow for very effective hand-held photography.

 

When I first tested the X1D I was with a small bunch of about 6 pros, mostly Hasselblad users, and the thing that they liked most about the new camera was that it was so easy to use hand-held. So yes, it might require a different approach from Summilux photography, but perhaps not as different as you fear.

[Jeff S]

Good points, Peter.  I think the initial response to the X1D was very enthusiastic, but sentiment swayed for some when delays took place, bugs emerged, etc.  In other words, similar to the Leica crowd.

 

I'd love for the X1D to become a successful system; it has a lot going for it, particularly if the company follows through on expectations.  For me, as I've written many times, a system starts with an excellent viewing/focusing approach.  Leica has nailed this with virtually every system I've tried....the quintessential RF in the M, the gorgeous OVF in the S, and the best EVF in the SL.  The X1D EVF misses that mark for me, but I'll still be very interested to see how the system progresses with its lens rollout, and whether the lenses/IQ can stand above the crowd, as Leica has demonstrated time and again.  I loved my Hasselblad film-based experience, and hope the X1D can put some of that magic into an elegant little (relatively) package.

 

We don't need more camera companies following recent downward trends.  

 

Jeff