plasticman Posted January 7, 2015 Share #181 Posted January 7, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Agreed, which is why I sprinkled the comments as I did -- their opinion not gospel. Personally, not sure it costs Leica all that much to make the M-A and considering the price it is probably a high margin product for something that is essentially a repackaging of what is already being made. IF they were starting this from scratch, a different story. But, like I said, I could care less if it is collectible or not -- I buy cameras to use. Sorry my post probably came across as combative - which wasn't my intention. I realized you weren't passing on the information as though it had any authority - I just didn't have time when I was posting to add any qualification to my harsh-sounding reply. I agree there must be an almost-zero extra cost for Leica to add this camera to their range, so I don't see why they'd make it a limited run. On the other hand, I often find (as you know) that dealers just make stuff up: they like to present themselves as having some sort of inside knowledge which very often they simply don't have - as you realized yourself, this is probably one of those occasions. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Hi plasticman, Take a look here I love my M-A. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
FrozenInTime Posted January 7, 2015 Share #182 Posted January 7, 2015 I agree there must be an almost-zero extra cost for Leica to add this camera to their range, so I don't see why they'd make it a limited run. On the other hand, I often find (as you know) that dealers just make stuff up: they like to present themselves as having some sort of inside knowledge which very often they simply don't have - as you realized yourself, this is probably one of those occasions. I've suggested it before, but I think the M-A is the forever edition ... that will remain in production long after the M7 and MP meter electronics parts go obsolete. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarySHough Posted January 8, 2015 Share #183 Posted January 8, 2015 I have shot three roles through the M-A using my 21 1.4 asph, 35 2.0 asph, 50 1.4 asph and 90 2.8. It's just the basics, and I have enjoyed using the M-A more that my M240. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 8, 2015 Share #184 Posted January 8, 2015 I've suggested it before, but I think the M-A is the forever edition ... that will remain in production long after the M7 and MP meter electronics parts go obsolete. Don't you remember 2003? That was when everybody was saying the same thing about the MP, that it was a camera to keep forever, the camera that wouldn't become obsolete. Even if the meter failed and couldn't be repaired it would still be as functional as the M-A, it doesn't need a battery. Those people in 2003 weren't wrong, it's just that what they said has been overlooked. As for the M-A being the 'forever edition', well look at Leica's recent history and decide. In around a year there will be a 'black paint' edition of it, then there will be an edition commemorating something or other, then there will be a major cosmetic upgrade edition and you'll get the M-A-2, and so on. So yes, the M-A could well be the 'forever edition', a forever comprised of little tempting morsels that mean envy and upgrades are the order of the day. Why, one day there may even be a 'meter edition', it's not a mad idea considering Leica's recent upgrades policy within it's core business of selling collectibles. Steve 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted January 8, 2015 Share #185 Posted January 8, 2015 There might be some special editions, but I very much doubt there will be an M-A2. What do you think they would add? Video? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2015 Share #186 Posted January 8, 2015 There might be some special editions, but I very much doubt there will be an M-A2. What do you think they would add? Video? For an M-A2 they could add the missing self-timer of M2 X, M3 and M4. But in fact not a new designation would be necessary, the self-timer became standard equipment in the later M2's production. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted January 8, 2015 Share #187 Posted January 8, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) For an M-A2 they could add the missing self-timer of M2 X, M3 and M4.But in fact not a new designation would be necessary, the self-timer became standard equipment in the later M2's production. This ignores the fact that lots of people (myself included) who aspire to the most pared-down and minimal camera possible don't want a self-timer. I personally think that Leica know perfectly what they're doing with this camera - and adding extra features is not 'on brand'. On the other hand, it's more than likely they'll add options to get different finishes, and probably different rangefinder magnifications - if there's demand for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2015 Share #188 Posted January 8, 2015 This ignores the fact that lots of people (myself included) who aspire to the most pared-down and minimal camera possible don't want a self-timer. I personally think that Leica know perfectly what they're doing with this camera - and adding extra features is not 'on brand'. On the other hand, it's more than likely they'll add options to get different finishes, and probably different rangefinder magnifications - if there's demand for it. There have been enough situations where I've missed the self-timer of M3 in the M6. Based on pillars or railings the self-timer enabled photos without motion blurring, where otherwise films with higher sensitivities or a tripod would have been necessary. But perhaps the different viewfinder magnifications could be integrated into an á la carte program, as well as the different finishes and on request also a self-timer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted January 8, 2015 Share #189 Posted January 8, 2015 There have been enough situations where I've missed the self-timer of M3 in the M6. Based on pillars or railings the self-timer enabled photos without motion blurring, where otherwise films with higher sensitivities or a tripod would have been necessary. But perhaps the different viewfinder magnifications could be integrated into an á la carte program, as well as the different finishes and on request also a self-timer? There was an M-A self-timer discussion somewhere (maybe in this thread?) before - some people use it while others don't. I've never felt I needed it, and prefer the visual minimalism of cameras that don't have it (such as the earlier M2 that you mentioned). Even the battery cover on the front of later cameras can annoy me. In any case, in my view Leica will either stick with the M-A more or less as it is over the next decade or so, or ditch it totally if there's no demand. Film camera buyers generally don't feel the need to purchase brand new hardware every year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share #190 Posted January 8, 2015 There haven't been any functional changes to the MP since its introduction in 2003. I doubt that Leica will make any changes to the M-A apart from presumably offer it in black paint and/or bring the camera into the à la carte programme. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmr237 Posted January 8, 2015 Share #191 Posted January 8, 2015 As for the M-A being the 'forever edition', well look at Leica's recent history and decide. In around a year there will be a 'black paint' edition of it, then there will be an edition commemorating something or other, then there will be a major cosmetic upgrade edition and you'll get the M-A-2, and so on. I don't think recent history supports this claim. Sure, we can expect Leica to add the M-A to the a la carte program, and to issue special edition versions of the M-A. But, if the base model MP and M7 serve as any guide, they will not replace the M-A with an M-A-2 or whatever. That approach seems reserved to the digital Ms (e.g. M8.2, M9-P, M-P). I don't think you can link their upgrade cycle on digital Ms to the film bodies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 8, 2015 Share #192 Posted January 8, 2015 But, if the base model MP and M7 serve as any guide, they will not replace the M-A with an M-A-2 or whatever. That approach seems reserved to the digital Ms (e.g. M8.2, M9-P, M-P). I don't think you can link their upgrade cycle on digital Ms to the film bodies. You don't get it do you. The M-A is the MP without a meter, it is a variation on the theme, it isn't a 'new' camera, they just left the meter out of the old one. So what you have is everything Leica have learned from their digital upgrade cycle with a variant appealing to people who dream of ever more 'purity'. They have cleverly tapped an emotional response instead of simply saying that if you like they can leave the meter out of an MP in the a la carte programme. And the result is a shot in the arm for film camera sales. If as a business they have learned anything it will not be about 'making a camera for life', which if you think about it kind of limits sales expectations, but if they offer 'refreshed' products there will always be somebody who needs the upgrade, so boosting sales. Sometimes I wonder if there is anybody who understands the principles and benefits of capitalism in this forum, when it comes to cameras at least, but I bet everybody would suddenly catch up if the option was a Trabant and a steady job in a Siberian tractor factory. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A miller Posted January 8, 2015 Share #193 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I suppose that there are always things to tinker with even with the fine cameras that are currently in the stable. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Leica continued to launch repackaged and re-repackaged film cameras to keep the market energized. One out of the box idea that I would love to Leica to consider is to design a brand new medium format rangefinder camera. It could use a stripped down version of the lenses from the "S" line. Presumably, the glass is already available and the lenses would just need to be retrofitted for an analog camera. I am not seeing that the S is as praised and widely used of a tool in its space as the Ms are in the 35mm space, and I would have thought that serious economies of scale from all the R&D that Leica has incurred for its stable of S lenses could be achieved by creating an analog "S". It could be like a jumbo M7, which after a few years could be stripped even further to be a jumbo M-A This would be really dreamy and I would go for it in a heartbeat. Even at double the price of an M-A it would still be a bargain compared to the S. Edited January 8, 2015 by A miller 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 8, 2015 Share #194 Posted January 8, 2015 Absolutely brilliant idea Adam, I'd buy one. Perhaps a similar thing to a Plaubel Makina, or Mamiya 7?? Leitz did once upon a time supply medium format lenses to Vollenda which used a 105mm Elmar on a 6x9 folding body. I have one and the quality is pretty good although it is a pain to use as it's a 620 so a 120 film either needs modifying or re-spooling. Steve 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share #195 Posted January 8, 2015 This would be really dreamy and I would go for it in a heartbeat. Even at double the price of an M-A it would still be a steal compared to the S. Even ignoring the problem that the S sensor is "only" 45mm x 30mm and not even close to 645 in film terms, I think it is incredibly unlikely that Leica would think about spending any real money developing a new film camera and lens line. The M-A is, after all, an existing camera in different clothes (it is virtually the same camera as the MP Classic that I have previously owned) and will have cost very little in development terms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A miller Posted January 8, 2015 Share #196 Posted January 8, 2015 I don't know about that and would love to see the numbers. The T and X Vario were new designs with lots of R&D (with the T needing an entire new line of lenses). One can question the cost benefit of these endeavors (no offense to any T or XV users) at the end of the day given how these digital tools become obsolete so quickly. Analog doesn't become obsolete. I'll bet that I and many others can roll up our sleeves and rationalize Leica's vast product suite and come away with enough budget to produce an analog S, which should be a substantial enough tool to demand a substantially higher profit margin than the film Ms (after normalizing/amortizing R&D costs). . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share #197 Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I'll bet that I and many others can roll up our sleeves and rationalize Leica's vast product suite and come away with enough budget to produce an analog S, which should be a substantial enough tool to demand a substantially higher profit margin than the film Ms (after normalizing/amortizing R&D costs). When Leica developed the R8 camera during the late 1990s (when film was still the mainstream technology) they effectively bankrupted the company and required sympathetic outside investment (such as the Hermes stake) to stay afloat. There is no chance that Leica will consider spending a large amount of R&D on a new film camera nor do I think the numbers will add up. Besides, as I've already pointed out, the S system is based around a 45mm x 30mm sensor format. In film terms it's barely medium format. Would anyone who isn't a committed fanboy really spend serious money on an S film camera when there are many better alternatives, including a number of MF cameras still in production? What would you rather use: a half-frame 645 film camera costing north of £10,000 including a lens or a full 6x7 camera such as the Mamiya 7 for £2,500 (substantially less bought used)? Edited January 8, 2015 by wattsy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A miller Posted January 8, 2015 Share #198 Posted January 8, 2015 Good points, Ian. And the R line is an interesting analogy. But I still would like to have a fire-side chat with Mr. Daniels about this.... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted January 8, 2015 Share #199 Posted January 8, 2015 Sensor size aside, if the current S body can be retrofitted to 120 film there is little cost to Leica relative to potential gain. I agree there is no way they would develop a brand new body for 120 film or larger, didn't they just buy a camera company that does that, but a refitting of the S would make sense if for no other Eason than broadening the base of buyers for S lenses. Kind of like the razor blade model 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted January 8, 2015 Share #200 Posted January 8, 2015 Good points, Ian. And the R line is an interesting analogy. But I still would like to have a fire-side chat with Mr. Daniels about this.... Ask him to buy Kodak Alaris while you're sitting there. I'll get the round in. Pete 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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