M(240) Edition 60

[jpattison]

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If only it had a CCD sensor, what's the point of CMOS here?

 

John

[ahituna]

Like I mentioned in the other thread. I like the concept of the E60 camera.

 

However, it really needs a simple OLED screen with the follow:

- Histogram

- Lens coding (auto/manual)

- exposure comp

- frames (used/remaining)

 

Perhaps using a 4 button interface like the S cameras.

 

cheers!

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[glsgowman]

It is designed to give the user the mindset of a film photographer. However, it should have included a winder like the early Epson digital rangefinder camera. I like the idea, it saves on battery and trains the photographer to concentrate and keep shooting rather than inspecting his/her shots.

[jaapv]

Like I mentioned in the other thread. I like the concept of the E60 camera.

 

However, it really needs a simple OLED screen with the follow:

- Histogram

- Lens coding (auto/manual)

- exposure comp

- frames (used/remaining)

 

Perhaps using a 4 button interface like the S cameras.

 

cheers!

No it doesn't, that would spoil the concept....

[m6left]

If I may chime in with this:

A major of my Leica M6 shooting experience and joy while shooting on Fuji Reala 100 was the thrill of discovering awesome, mind-blowing shots after processing, not being 100% sure if my composition, aperture and timing were really spot on. However, after years of practice and coming really close with WYSIWYG, the feeling of being blown away by a perfect frame after processing was still SO exhilarating.

 

I really miss this emotion in digital photography. IMHO, that's why Leica designed the 60.

[Alberti]

I'd buy it in a heartbeat as a second body without the Audi styling, as a monochrome, with a 240 sensor (sans bayer filter), for around the price of the M240.

Best,

Steve

 

Or lower price, with a monochrome output as one of the model options: "any color as long as it is black".

Love the basics. Aperture, where we can select AutoExpo or shutterspeed, dial in the selected film speed; we also need an indicator for correct exposure. Nothing new. I like to work like that.

But once we have closed the black box: maybe some extra's:

 

• A fancy bar for over/underexposure maybe added instead of just the triangles
  
• Why not present a small (life??) histogram in some corner?
  

 

But maybe Jaap is right. [He has the right to be so ...]

Edited September 23, 2014 by Alberti
:-)

[mooey]

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Good point. Frames remaining, or at least some indication you are down to the last 50 or 20 on the card would be essential. But (all) this could be displayed in the OVF easily enough. No need for any external screen.

[Jeff S]

Good point. Frames remaining, or at least some indication you are down to the last 50 or 20 on the card would be essential. But (all) this could be displayed in the OVF easily enough. No need for any external screen.

 

There already is a button on top to trigger VF info …one push showing battery capacity and 2nd push showing frames remaining according to this video with David Farkas and Stefan Daniel (at about 14min, 30sec.)

 

Jeff

[hhanebeck]

If I may chime in with this:

A major of my Leica M6 shooting experience and joy while shooting on Fuji Reala 100 was the thrill of discovering awesome, mind-blowing shots after processing, not being 100% sure if my composition, aperture and timing were really spot on. However, after years of practice and coming really close with WYSIWYG, the feeling of being blown away by a perfect frame after processing was still SO exhilarating.

 

I really miss this emotion in digital photography. IMHO, that's why Leica designed the 60.

 

I can only second that! To me the M 60 is THE ]perfect digital camera and also a perfect complement to the Monochrom. I was on the list to buy an M 60, but will take my chances and wait for a production version to come out at a much lower price point and w/o a lens that I already have. Stefan Daniel mentioned in an interview with the Leica Miami folks that they are seriously considering it. I'll keep my fingers crossed!

 

Cheers, Chris

[zlatkob]

It is designed to give the user the mindset of a film photographer. However, it should have included a winder like the early Epson digital rangefinder camera. I like the idea, it saves on battery and trains the photographer to concentrate and keep shooting rather than inspecting his/her shots.

 

This is good for someone, but I'm not looking for a camera to train me, or to give me a mindset from a different medium. Somehow winding a winder on a film camera doesn't improve my concentration. Winding a winder on a digital camera would have me concentrating on the odd fact that I'm winding it, and considering how far battery technology has come.

[zlatkob]

There already is a button on top to trigger VF info …one push showing battery capacity and 2nd push showing frames remaining according to this video with David Farkas and Stefan Daniel (at about 14min, 30sec.)

 

Jeff

 

Consider how digital that is: two button pushes just to see the frame count. On an analog camera, a glance at the top shows the frame count. I realize that with digital we don't need to see the frame count nearly as often as with film, but still it feels like a bit of a retreat to lose instant access to an important number like the frame count.

[carstenw]

Needs for less doodads can be simply met by ignoring the doodad.

 

Do you avoid tidying up, and just ignore the mess?

 

That to me is an *exact* parallel to the M60 (ignoring the Audi design and price tag).

 

Those buttons distract. The screen distracts. I would love a camera without, but not with a rangefinder, because I would never know if it was adjusted properly. I would love an A7 like this.

 

In fact, to me this camera has one button (video), and one hotshot cover, too many. And one pair of gloves, but that is the special edition thing again.

[carstenw]

Leica does not release as a collector's item. It releases a product at a certain level of features and luxury - it is the buyer who decides what to do with it - be it vacuum-wrap it in plastic and put it in a safe, or beat it up using it hard.

 

A limited edition is as close to a collector's item as it is possible to get. The 600 are gone, and the others who want one can't have one. Some of the 600 will be appearing on eBay and other places at jacked-up prices.

 

Personally, I think that Leica will be watching comments very carefully, and may release a normal version one day, based not on the Audi design, but the normal M. I hope they will make it slimmer.

[pop]

Consider how digital that is: two button pushes just to see the frame count. On an analog camera, a glance at the top shows the frame count. I realize that with digital we don't need to see the frame count nearly as often as with film, but still it feels like a bit of a retreat to lose instant access to an important number like the frame count.

 

Ah, that is of course a fundamental problem. With the M Edition 60 you press an easily accessible button while still holding the view finder in front of your eye while with a mechanical camera you move the camera a foot or so away in front of your face, read off the number of remaining frames if you can see the digits in the available light, and then move the camera again in front of your favorite eye. In the meantime, you have not been able to observe what was happening in front of the camera.

 

I can not quite make up my mind if there is one way which is clearly better than the other one in each and every circumstance.

 

I think many here are protesting quite a bit.

 

Do you avoid tidying up, and just ignore the mess?

 

That to me is an *exact* parallel to the M60 (ignoring the Audi design and price tag).

 

Those buttons distract. The screen distracts. I would love a camera without, but not with a rangefinder, because I would never know if it was adjusted properly. I would love an A7 like this.

 

In fact, to me this camera has one button (video), and one hotshot cover, too many. And one pair of gloves, but that is the special edition thing again.

 

I agree. There even have been some discussions in this forum about cameras apparently misbehaving because users inadvertently operated some of the controls on the back of the camera. There have been discussions as well on how to keep the glass pane in front of the display clean and how to prevent scratches or breakage.

 

I think I could cope with a pair of cotton gloves. In fact, I bought some just the other day for handling my negatives.

[zlatkob]

Ah, that is of course a fundamental problem. With the M Edition 60 you press an easily accessible button while still holding the view finder in front of your eye while with a mechanical camera you move the camera a foot or so away in front of your face, read off the number of remaining frames if you can see the digits in the available light, and then move the camera again in front of your favorite eye. In the meantime, you have not been able to observe what was happening in front of the camera.

 

I can not quite make up my mind if there is one way which is clearly better than the other one in each and every circumstance.

 

I don't think that's how it usually works. The way you described is possible, of course. But photographers don't walk around with the camera to their face all of the time. Instead, they walk around with the camera in their hands or hanging from a strap. They lift the camera to their eye from time to time, sometimes keeping it up longer if something is happening. But most of the time it is not in front of the eye. This means that there are long and often continuous opportunities to glance at the frame count (on a film camera) in a way that does not interrupt any moment of photography or any viewing through the viewfinder. By contrast, the M60 requires a combination of bringing the camera in front of the eye along with two button presses to see the frame count. Of course, either way works. But one way feels traditional and analog, while the other way feels more digital.

 

This relates to the whole proposition of making a digital camera that's supposed to give the user the mindset of a film camera. It can easily feel half-baked, more about style than function. Even the Epson R-D1 had something like an analog dial on top for frame count.

[IkarusJohn]

I can't get excited about it. Most of my SD cards are 16GB, so running out of space is very unlikely. It's the sort of thing I'd check when I get my camera out, and perhaps if I've taken a lot of pictures - if the battery dies, I have a spare in my bag.

 

Conversely, the topdeck (and the rest of the camera) is completely uncluttered. That is the design of this camera. Knowing the battery level or space on the SD card isn't anywhere near as important as knowing the frame count on my SWC (A12 magazine can be limiting) or on my M3 (36 exposures, usually). My SD cards hold hundreds of images, and I'm usually so excited to see the images, I download them as soon as I can - I don't preview them on the LCD as it's fundamentally too small, and I clear the card once I've finished downloading.

 

Perhaps I'm too much of a film photographer, but I've never filled an SD card.

 

I do wonder about always fixing the ISO before a shot. I use Auto ISO on the Monochrom, but I guess that is a different issue. On the M9, I set the ISO (usually 160, and I move it up only if I can't get the aperture I want at a sensible shutter speed).

 

PS - I assume the clever people at Leica have worked through the menus and have solutions for firmware updates, SD card formatting (remember with the M9 we were all told to only format in camera), setting the time and date, setting the language and cleaning the sensor ...

Edited September 23, 2014 by IkarusJohn

[luigi bertolotti]

In the poll about the LCDless M I voted for "making a LCDless digital has no sense", and I keep this opinion... but Leica is Leica, and, personally, I find that ISO setting is by far my most used menu setting... I am much accustomed also to free space on SD Card, deleting time by time unuseful frames... but just an attitude, not a real problem of space (I have NEVER needed to use my 2nd card in the pocket....) ;

so, I conclude that I COULD appreciate such a camera... but just for sentimental reasons... in practice, I wouldn't buy it... unless (thinking at the times I decided to buy my M240) it could have been available for significant less money (500 Euros or so), which is clearly absurd. Should I want to have the luxury of a 2nd body (absolutely uneven, for me) I could think seriously to it.

[cbarr]

I thought the move by Leica was bold and consistent with their brand philosophy to remove all distractions between photographer and subject. However, I would have left the LCD and simply removed some extraneous items such as the movie making aspects.

Cbarr

[david strachan]

We could all use the M60, but we’d lose many photographic opportunities.

The LCD allows chimping (Check & Improve) soo important to get the image now, correctly exposed, properly framed and focused. The image lost here, at time of the moment, is lost forever. Best to chimp and check for focus particularly, background etc… It may take several shots to get one’s previsualised image.

It’s too late at the computer, if you didn’t get the photograph at the time.

Cheers Dave S

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Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

I can't get excited about it. Most of my SD cards are 16GB, so running out of space is very unlikely. It's the sort of thing I'd check when I get my camera out, and perhaps if I've taken a lot of pictures - if the battery dies, I have a spare in my bag.

 

Conversely, the topdeck (and the rest of the camera) is completely uncluttered. That is the design of this camera. Knowing the battery level or space on the SD card isn't anywhere near as important as knowing the frame count on my SWC (A12 magazine can be limiting) or on my M3 (36 exposures, usually). My SD cards hold hundreds of images, and I'm usually so excited to see the images, I download them as soon as I can - I don't preview them on the LCD as it's fundamentally too small, and I clear the card once I've finished downloading.

 

Perhaps I'm too much of a film photographer, but I've never filled an SD card.

 

I do wonder about always fixing the ISO before a shot. I use Auto ISO on the Monochrom, but I guess that is a different issue. On the M9, I set the ISO (usually 160, and I move it up only if I can't get the aperture I want at a sensible shutter speed).

 

PS - I assume the clever people at Leica have worked through the menus and have solutions for firmware updates, SD card formatting (remember with the M9 we were all told to only format in camera), setting the time and date, setting the language and cleaning the sensor ...

What language?