M3 Authenticity?

[gscriven]

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Hello,

 

I am new to the world of Leica and the forum but I have just purchased what I am hoping is a genuine M3 off a private seller but I had a question about something I only noticed once I had the camera at home with me.

 

Basically I realized the Lens "Release" Button doesn't have the signature M3 metal surround. I have spent a few days google-ing and researching the features of an authentic leica and everything appears to be correct except for that tiny piece of metal that every other M3 has around the lens button.

 

Was there at any point any variation that lacked the surround or would any of you guys/girls have any suggestions/reasoning behind it?

 

Everything else seems to be correct like the pitting and general wear, the rewind knob dot colour etc etc.

 

Thanks in advance for all your input and suggestions, based on the responses I get I can easily add more photos that would help you out.

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Edited August 3, 2014 by gscriven

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[doolittle]

I am open to correction, but I don't think fake M3 are really an issue, unlike the previous barrack models. Certainly looks fine from the picture you posted.

 

I am not sure what you mean by the surround, maybe a picture of the top plate would help?

[jaapv]

I am not aware of fake M3s, They are too common to take the trouble.

[Kwesi]

I was able to find another one on Google by searching for M3 Lens Release and looking at images. So I would say its authentic and quite rare. Would love to know the history. Try searching for production date of your camera by using the serial number

 

Kwesi

 

Just saw 2 more on page 15 of the " I love my M3 thread" .

Edited August 3, 2014 by Kwesi
New information

[pico]

The latter models of the M3 did not have the lens release guard.

 

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/Leica/Leica-M3/1961-1966/M3ST-1966a.jpeg

Edited August 3, 2014 by pico

[gscriven]

Thanks for all your suggestions. Upon initial research I was under the impression that fake m3's are rare (which is what alot of you have suggested). I have attached some pictures showing the serial number, close up on lens release, rewind knob etc just in case anyone was interested.

 

Kwesi - I was hoping that was the case, that either it has somehow miraculously "come off" without leaving a trace, or that it is a rare occurrence. Will try doing some more research tonight and update you guys later.

 

Thanks for all your help so far,

Grant

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[gscriven]

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The latter models of the M3 did not have the lens release guard.

 

From what I have gathered the serial number is kind of in the middle of the production. Not your early models, but not your later models either. But that is interesting to know.

 

I was under the impression that Single Strokes started at around 920,000 so I'm not sure if mine was factory single stroke or a double that was converted to single. (Although one website with serial numbers listed suggests that there might have possibly been a few slightly earlier numbers with single stroke advance.

 

Sorry if I say anything stupid or completely wrong (I have been a DSLR boy and only lusted after leicas up until last week).

[pico]

Leica M serial numbers here: Leica Serial Numbers: M's Sorted by Type

[Michael Hiles]

The latter models of the M3 did not have the lens release guard.

 

Interesting. My M3 is newer (999...) and it has the surround. Whatever, this unit looks genuine, and I have never heard of a fake M3.

[250swb]

The clue is in the year, 1957, and what else happened on the Leica production line in 1957?

 

Leica may have thought they would integrate aspects of construction in running two models alongside each other, until the grumpy brigade demanded it's re-introduction. So it's an attempt at cost saving that didn't go down well. It could also be somebody forgot to order a new batch of M3 vulcanite and Leica had to use M2 pattern vulcanite instead, not unheard of, after all it wasn't long ago we had the 'great battery famine'.

 

Steve

[luigi bertolotti]

For me, the most probable hipotesis is that this M3 has undergone a significant restoration (probably, at factory) which involved the change of the lens release button : M3 production ended around 1968 : if the overhaul has been done several years after, such modifications are quite frequent, depending on the availability of spares ; this, of course does not put in discussion the originality of the item : a savvy owner could have kept the papers related to such works... but around 30+ years ago probably many did think of their M3 simply as a camera to be used, not to a collectible to be kept with a documented pedigree...

[gyoung]

My M3 from the last major batch (1158....) does not have the guard round the lens release button.

 

Gerry

[luigi bertolotti]

My M3 from the last major batch (1158....) does not have the guard round the lens release button.

 

Gerry

 

Correct : see also the page linked by Pico.

[Orient XI]

Mine #1135××× from two major batches earlier has the guard. Strange that Leica left it so late in the production run to remove the guard so that 11 o'clock lenses could be used with a screw to bayonet adaptor.

[wizard]

As has been pointed out by others, the very last batch or batches of M3 cameras were lacking that surround around the lens release button. I have a very late M3 (1 13x xxx or 1 14x xxx, if I remember correctly) and it still has that surround. The ones with 1 15x xxx don't have it.

 

Your copy, however, should have it, as it is an earlier model. Maybe the body was repaired at some point, using parts from a later batch.

 

Andy

[jc_braconi]

I have one s/n 1 156 7xx, 1966 issued with no guard around the release button.

Luigi saw a picture of it some years ago...

 

Your one is surely a rebuild one and an authentic M3 even it is is been rebuild/repaired.

Edited August 4, 2014 by jc_braconi

[Guest]

I have one s/n 1 156 7xx, 1966 issued with no guard around the release button.

...

Must be a sister of mine - same s/n 1.156.7xx, same year, same features.

 

Did all these later M3 have the optical depth indicator for 50 mm?

(according to Bawendi from No. 919 251 (1958) in Contributions to the History of Leica, 25 years Leica Historica, p. 204 under No. 15)

Addendum: in 1958, according to Laney / Puts, Leica Paperback, 7th edition, p. 37

quoted according to http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-sammler-historica/148531-tiefenschaerfe-anzeige-im-e-messer.html # 14

[joeswe]

Thanks for all your suggestions. Upon initial research I was under the impression that fake m3's are rare (which is what alot of you have suggested).

 

I think your question has been answered, but I have the impression there still might be a fundamental misunderstanding regarding what you call "fake M3s". It's not that fake M3s are "rare". They simply do not exist. There are no fake M3s that I am aware of. Well, maybe it depends on how you define "fake". But in a strict sense (a camera that pretends to be an M3, but is not), there are no "fake M3s" that I am aware of. M3s are very common cameras, the most numerous Leica M model at all, they are a dime a dozen, so to say, so what sense would it make to go to great lengths trying to make a different camera (say, an M2) look like a M3? Well, if you define "fake" as a camera which has any modifications done to it at all, then, yes of course, these cameras are 50+ years old, some have been repaired, altered, modified, finders have been replaced, doublestroke models upgraded to singlestroke and the other way round, classic take-up spools replaced with quickload spools, vulcanite covers replaced etc. So, a lot of the M3s out there are probably not 100% "genuine" in the sense that they are still 100% unchanged from the day they left the factory, but that doesn't make them "fakes"; A fake would be a camera that someone has modified consciously with the aim of (mis)representing it as something much more valuable. For example, so called (original factory) "black paint" M3s are rare, sought after and expensive, so crooks have been repainting plain chrome M3s to black and trying to sell them for a fortune to some fool as a genuine factory black paint M3. This would qualify as a fake, IMO. But not as a "fake M3". Only as a fake "original factory black paint M3".

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[wlaidlaw]

The only camera you could fake the M3 from would be the Chinese copy of the M, the Hongqi 35. These are so rare that they are worth a lot of money, so why would you. They were made for VIP’s in China.

 

Wilson

[payasam]

Is it possible that the guard ring was removed, the body was converted to single stroke and the shutter speeds were changed from the old 1-2-5-10-25-50-100 sequence to the new one?