dwbell Posted October 17, 2013 Share #761 Posted October 17, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Mitch, it seems only natural that I should oppose your "consumerist" stance, so I will, gladly! I consider myself a photographer, not a Leica user. I dearly love my canon and Ellinchrom studio (portable) kit but, as Leica fans keep harking about, it is bulky and simply not suitable to every photography occasion. My purchasing the M240 and the M9 was simply as a high quality small camera. I could give two hoots about RF focus. I want the highest quality sensor and glass on the smallest possible body. End of. My X100s replaced my M9 and 35 cron as the results were so close as damn it that no-one could tell the difference in blind tests. The X100s fell down, obviously, when I needed a different focal length - that's where the M240 comes in. It's still 'smaller' than the canon gear for travel and such photography. I grew up with computers, switching cameras to me is a piece of p1ss, I can easily use different menu systems, next to one another (not a dig by the way). I can shoot X100s canon G15 all day with ease. My colour profiles mean all my images are very very close in terms of colour, MY colour. The only limit I have with a G15 X100s kit is print size. a3 is good, a2 falls over. For a2 I need a FF sensor. The march of technology is what's causing me to change all the time, I love it and it enables my image making. I often extrapolate in my head. Where would it stop? I'm moving around my subject, the camera is capable of silent 30 cps FF 36 MP images, and it can do this for extended periods. I have picked the near eye, at f/0.95 and the computer tracks it no matter where I put it in my frame. Exposure ops shown to me in real time and I can EV +/- dynamically during the shoot by sliding my thumb up and down a track pad, not 1/3 stop increments, linear seamless increments. Needless to say the camera has an insane dynamic range. On my computer at home I swipe, no lag, through a flicker picture book of the action, it appears as a movie almost, I hone in on the one look that captures what I remember, or intended, the other images are dropped automatically. This image, or versions up to it, upset many photographers. For me, it's all about the printed image. I don't care if you climbed to the top of Everest with a view camera, or sent a drone helicopter up there with a gopro from your living room - only the image counts. Technology that gets out of the way to let me focus on the image is fine by me. Note, that is not too far away from those who feel technology gets IN the way. But that's camera design combined with user ability. On average, and I can use both methods proficiently, I get more keepers with tech than without. Strangely I could see the A7r replacing both my Leica's AND my canons, when shooting TTL the M240 and the X100s have made me crave an EVF in my canon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 Hi dwbell, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rosuna Posted October 17, 2013 Share #762 Posted October 17, 2013 The problem with Leica is the prices, or how the prices evolve. One or two heavy increases every year for the lenses! Those prices are absurd, crazy. I don't say Leica has to become "cheap", but they have to restrain that continuous rise in prices. Leica bodies are too expensive as well. These new Sony bodies will force price adjustments in many cameras of the competition. The will offer the best image quality in the market, and the price is a point of reference none can ignore. Not even Canon, Nikon or Leica. Regarding specifications, the Leica M is perfect considering it just a rangefinder camera. The processor is weak for heavy video applications, but anyway that camera is not meant to be used as a video camera. Leica should develop new products, different products, based on the M mount. Maybe something like those Sony beasts, with EVF and no rangefinder, for those who doesn't need the rangefinder and want/like the mix stills and video, or use R lenses. Stylish, Leica, resistant, more affordable, full frame of course... just different. That is the way to follow. Now they have the new factories almost ready. I feel 2014 will be an interesting year for Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted October 17, 2013 Share #763 Posted October 17, 2013 This and similar threads make it seem that it's more fun to be a camera consumer rather than a photographer. The fun of being a photographer toward the end of the film era was making pictures, and people kept film cameras for many years, with a very small proportion changing cameras frequently, perhaps when going on to other formats. Consequently, before the advent of digital, camera production was a low-growth, mature industry not really driven by consumerism. Digital changed that as consumers started not only to replace film cameras with digital cameras but, over the last decade or so, also replacing new digital cameras with newer ones, as rapid technological change improved the image quality and user interface of digital cameras. Today, the bottom end, the bulk of camera sales, has been taken over by smartphone cameras and the top end now has generally good cameras, with relatively little dramatic difference in image quality being introduced. The Visual Science Lab / Kirk Tuck: Has the bubble burst? Is that why camera sales in N. America are down by 43%? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2013 Share #764 Posted October 17, 2013 Interesting - my initial reaction was that we are all being too hard on Leica with this release - they made the M3, and the M9 ... But then I think about the price, and the coldness with which they abandoned the R series (I wasn't into Leica then - I had a Nikon FM2 and the R cameras looked huge and not to my taste at all); then the apparent ease with which they abandoned the CCD sensor (it took a near revolt here for them to actually say anything). So, it's time for a reality check. Many here have said often - digital cameras are computers; electronics; to believe "a camera for life" printed all over Leica's marketing and website is silly and naive. And they're right. These cameras are electronics, and they are good for 10 years at best (that's all that Leica will offer me for my M9P and Monochrom). The rangefinder may be good for 50 years (like my M3), and the case for 150, but if the sensor doesn't work, who cares? The M(240) is a computer, and to be honest, it is a poor one compared to the opposition. It's all very well saying that Leica is a small company that can't compete with Sony for electronics, but they have to. If they can't keep up with the electronics, then they do not belong in the digital camera market. How many people, how many times, on this forum (a LEICA forum) said they needed to release a camera like the A7, and for how long? Leica's answer? The X-Vario ... Really? This Sony camera was no surprise. I don't think I will be investing in any more Leica cameras. There is simply no justification for the premium. I love my M9, but the M(240) and the X Vario killed it for me. I will wait for the Hermes M(240) with interest, but I will take some convincing this company is worth investing in further. I will cherish my Leica lenses, and may buy more, but their camera strategy needs a very serious rethink. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
}{B Posted October 17, 2013 Share #765 Posted October 17, 2013 As I've not so far switched to digital for my M lenses the new Sony seems to be a cost effective alternative to the M-E & M240 depending on how M lenses function with an adapter especially in relation to the electronic viewfinder. Having no real experience of using an EVF perhaps forum members would give me some guidance on what to expect. One of my concerns, which is based on using 'legacy' lenses on my Olympus E1 DSLR, is that M lenses with an adapter will be used stopped down and the smaller the aperture the dimmer the viewfinder becomes. In the case of my E1 anything smaller than F4 and the optical finder becomes difficult to focus. Unless an EVF has some electronic wizardry to compensate will this not effect useability? Having never 'Focus Peaked' how does this work in relation to M lenses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted October 17, 2013 Share #766 Posted October 17, 2013 beautiful colors and with M lens , it will be even better My guess is that the best quality from this camera will come when it's paired with Zeiss lenses designed from the ground up for the peculiarities of the sensor. There's every reason to believe that the 35 and 55mm lenses will be at least as optically good as their Leica equivalents with the added bonus of the option of autofocus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted October 17, 2013 Share #767 Posted October 17, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) My guess is that the best quality from this camera will come when it's paired with Zeiss lenses designed from the ground up for the peculiarities of the sensor. There's every reason to believe that the 35 and 55mm lenses will be at least as optically good as their Leica equivalents with the added bonus of the option of autofocus. It would be nice but I wouldn't expect that to be the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 17, 2013 Share #768 Posted October 17, 2013 They should be as good as ZM lenses at least. Pity that the 55 is so bulky though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted October 17, 2013 Share #769 Posted October 17, 2013 I would justify my recent M9 extravagance by saying it's compact and full frame. If the Sony performs with the 21sem, I no longer have any justification other than the M9 looks nice. It will indeed have become jewellery. I'm looking forward to seeing some wide shots. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted October 17, 2013 Share #770 Posted October 17, 2013 As I've not so far switched to digital for my M lenses the new Sony seems to be a cost effective alternative to the M-E & M240 depending on how M lenses function with an adapter especially in relation to the electronic viewfinder. Having no real experience of using an EVF perhaps forum members would give me some guidance on what to expect. One of my concerns, which is based on using 'legacy' lenses on my Olympus E1 DSLR, is that M lenses with an adapter will be used stopped down and the smaller the aperture the dimmer the viewfinder becomes. In the case of my E1 anything smaller than F4 and the optical finder becomes difficult to focus. Unless an EVF has some electronic wizardry to compensate will this not effect useability? Having never 'Focus Peaked' how does this work in relation to M lenses? Go to a photo store and try out an Olympus EM, Fuji X, or something similar with an EVFR and you'll quickly get the idea. Focus peaking and EVF's work, but they are a pain to use compared to optical viewfinders (at least for me). EVF's struggle in sunlight, and it is basically like watching a small TV. You can't see outside the frame lines. Some people like EVF's, some don't. My Fuji X-E1's EVF is OK but the experience isn't anywhere near a proper optical viewfinder system on a SLR or a rangefinder. There will always be a little bit latency/lag with EVF's since what you see have to pass through the lens, then be prossesed by a cpu, and so on... And you will get shutter blackout, just like on SLR's... But EVF's are good for certain things as well. You can see the picture as it will look on the EVF (excellent for B&W photography, as you will see how the picture will look in B&W in the EVF). Precision focusing is better on an EVF with magnification, etc. Just go and try a camera with an EVF and you'll quickly know if you like it or not. I am sure that in 5-6 years time EVF's will dominate the camera market, and they will in time replace optical viewfinders. But personally I think EVF's still has a long way to go to be good enough to replace OVF's. Being able to see outside the framelines and to avoid shutter blackout will not be possible on an EVF though, that's technically impossible. EVF's will be a good replacement for the OVF's on SLR since they work the same way (shutter blackout, what you see is what you get, can't see outside the frame lines, etc). But EVF's will never be able to give you what a rangefinder does (no shutter blackout, see outside the frame lines, etc). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted October 17, 2013 Share #771 Posted October 17, 2013 It would be nice but I wouldn't expect that to be the case. Why? Recent Zeiss lenses for mirrorless cameras - both M and Contax G - have been uniformly excellent at prices much below their Leica equivalents. Unless they've suddenly and inexplicably lost the plot, the lenses they've created for the A7 should perform at the highest level. Looking at the unusual form factor of the 55 - light in weight but long in length - it's reasonable to assume a lot of thought has gone in to producing lenses specifically to match the characteristics of these newly developed sensors. Given that these designs are not limited by a film legacy it would be more surprising than not if they're not amongst the best lenses available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveclem Posted October 17, 2013 Share #772 Posted October 17, 2013 I'm officially confused by the multiple threads on this camera, can folks not read the forum headers before posting yet another thread ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted October 17, 2013 Share #773 Posted October 17, 2013 There was a real reason for me to choose to use Leica film camera bodies. I agree entirely. I returned to film and came to leica for its small footprint and excellent optics. Leica is truly a luxury product now. Now, there are, perhaps, better alternatives available that fit my requirements. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 17, 2013 Share #774 Posted October 17, 2013 Is there any link to the shutter sound of the A7r? My apologies if i missed it in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted October 17, 2013 Share #775 Posted October 17, 2013 Is there any link to the shutter sound of the A7r? My apologies if i missed it in this thread. Ckeck 5:15 into this . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted October 17, 2013 Share #776 Posted October 17, 2013 No interest whatever. Any resolution over 18 Mp will give you prints the size of the Empire State building. And what is the MP count in your M240;) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSun Posted October 17, 2013 Share #777 Posted October 17, 2013 As I've not so far switched to digital for my M lenses the new Sony seems to be a cost effective alternative to the M-E & M240 depending on how M lenses function with an adapter especially in relation to the electronic viewfinder. Having no real experience of using an EVF perhaps forum members would give me some guidance on what to expect. One of my concerns, which is based on using 'legacy' lenses on my Olympus E1 DSLR, is that M lenses with an adapter will be used stopped down and the smaller the aperture the dimmer the viewfinder becomes. In the case of my E1 anything smaller than F4 and the optical finder becomes difficult to focus. Unless an EVF has some electronic wizardry to compensate will this not effect useability? Having never 'Focus Peaked' how does this work in relation to M lenses? You don't have to worry about any dimming in the EVF when you stop down lenses. The brightness of the displayed image is automatically adjusted by the in-camera software, to keep it constant whatever aperture you select. So, it is different from using manual lenses with a DSLR. What can be more worrying at times is nailing focus. Sure, I have only experience with Ricoh GXR M, that has a quite dated EVF, so, probably the more recent ones work much better. But still, the caveat with focus peaking on an EVF is that it highlights that part of the image that has the highest microcontrast values. Many times this coincides with the in-focus areas. But not necessarily. Then, the other problem is that when you stop down a lens, naturally a great part of the image is going to have high local contrasts and then sometimes it is difficult to see where did you focus. Magnification helps, but still it is very different to see an image with a low resolution in an EVF (2.2 Mpixels) compared to its real resolution, especially at 36 Mpixels, where small errors in your focusing will show up bare naked. I second the opinion that EVF will evolve and could be even much better in the future - there are quite straightforward ways of improvement: 1. increasing resolution of the EVF, 2. implement focus peaking in a way that not only the actual frame is used as input to the algorithm that searches and highlights (probably) focused areas, but to use previous frames as well, as you focus forth and back with the lens as these can provide precious information of changing in-focus and out-of-focus areas. But this would need high computation power on board. - And all this shows that indeed a camera manufacturer cannot disregard the importance of electronics and firmware in these days, as pushing forward in these domains can harvest game-changer features. Leica should stand up and do something before it's too late. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted October 17, 2013 Share #778 Posted October 17, 2013 i am in a similar boat. I swallowed the Leica premium because I wanted a small camera with the highest image quality and interchangeable lenses- as good as a pro level DSLR but not nearly as big. I am a fan of the rangefinder system- but not to the extent that I don't think TTL viewing is in just about every way superior. I completely understand why the RF died and the SLR prevailed. I never could swallow the price of new Leica lenses: I need to swallow food first you see. Instead I have collected a trove of vintage lenses- sound investments all. The one true advantage Leica had was the size factor. Now that is gone- and unless they team up with one of the Asian manufacturers- I don't see them being able to innovate fast enough - or cheaply enough- to be competitive (technically speaking) from now on. I see them more and more as a luxury brand like Rolex. Does a Rolex keep time better than a $2 Quartz digital movement? No, it is worse at keeping time. Has Rolex gone out of business? No. I think Leica will find a niche alongside Rolex and Louis Vuitton in their boutiques. Leica cameras takes better photos than a Rolex keeps time, but their latest digital cameras look already clunky, outdated and overpriced beside this new competition (technically speaking). Look at the video implementation on the Sony compared to the Leica? Look at the hand grips: the prices and functionality. You need the Leica one to do things the camera cannot if you need to do those things. The Sony has those options and many more built into the camera. It's hangrip doubles battery life instead. You can buy 5 Sony batteris for the price of one Leica battery. A medium sized repair on a Leica body would likely cost as much as a new Sony body... etc. This new Sony has me wondering... do I really need/want my new M (when it finally gets back from repair)? I still want it- but I fear my justifications for owning it have become nostalgic and harder to rationalise as the market has evolved. I always thought if there was a full frame digital camera as small and as solid as a Minolta XD7 SLR then I would seriously consider dumping Leica rangefinders. A7 is pretty much that and a lot more. I think it is early days, and I will not give up on my M in any hurry. I do prefer the minimal aesthetics/controls and solid appearance of the M, but do these largely vain quibbles stand up under scrutiny? Time, (and the quality of the A7r files) will tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 17, 2013 Share #779 Posted October 17, 2013 I, for example, long for a day where the focus peaking is stabilised by 5 axis IBIS. The peaking requires microcontrast which is removed when I'm moving the focus barrel and wobbling the camera all over the place! I'm in "pre-shot" not "steady and squeeze' mode! Then I'd like real time clipping for highlights and shadows in the EVF in two colours, and peaking in a third colour with adjustable size of peak pixel and colour. Even better for me would be 3 stages of peak based on the level of micro contrast. To show where the DoF fall of starts and ends. All this I would prefer to have the option to keep visible upon half press, maybe dim slightly, but not disappear. Further, the boundary conditions for each of those settings should be lens and user specific. I don't see that being really a Leica kind of thing to achieve. Which is fine, but suggests Leica and I are moving apart. And as to Jaap's comment. If there is no perceptible reduction in speed of operation of the camera to acheive higher than 18mp, I'll take the plentiful crop options every time thanks, and I'll even frame a little looser to allow it! Yes, you heard me right - I'm the antithesis of Bresson! Heresy! Stone me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyalf Posted October 17, 2013 Share #780 Posted October 17, 2013 Sony has replaced expensive "hard" analogue quality buttons with "soft" lousy low-quality poor handling buttons. Again a camera not designed for photographers. Sony was so close... IQ will probably be great, but this is my personal subjective opinion on handling; But hey, its me that makes my buying choices . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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