AlanG Posted September 17, 2013 Share #321 Posted September 17, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sony and Zeiss are walking a tight rope at least to begin the new FF NEX system. They have to build a lens line from the ground up that can not be too large and expensive to begin with; the mirrorless cameras are significantly shallower and frequently smaller and lighter than DSLRs. Sony and Zeiss need to begin with smaller, lighter, and less expensive prime and zoom lenses to capture enough interest of the public to buy into the new camera system. As the system grows they will introduce faster, larger, heavier, and inevitably more expensive lenses that may be of more interest to pros and those needing faster optics. But, to get to that point and for a mature lens line it is going to take years. In the mean time there will also be hundreds or thousands of legacy manual focus lenses available to those that purchase the new camera. Leica too offers slower, smaller, lighter lenses in their system that are fine performing optics. Rich I agree with you except the larger Alpha lenses (Sony and third party) already exist so maybe it is only a few smaller and lighter lenses that they will need to concentrate on. One could buy the FF Nex and have an extremely comprehensive system immediately. And don't forget there are some small E mount APS lenses that could be used in crop mode. And as I mentioned above they'll be able to use EOS lenses in AF mode too. So a Canon shooter could buy the Sony body and maybe not even buy any Nex lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 17, 2013 Posted September 17, 2013 Hi AlanG, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
CaptZoom Posted September 17, 2013 Share #322 Posted September 17, 2013 I read some where that Sony was working on a system that allowed for sensor calibration (by the end user), specifically being able to change the flange distance. I wonder if such a system is commercially feasible? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted September 17, 2013 Share #323 Posted September 17, 2013 Sony and Zeiss are walking a tight rope at least to begin the new FF NEX system. They have to build a lens line from the ground up that can not be too large and expensive to begin with...As the system grows they will introduce faster, larger, heavier, and inevitably more expensive lenses that may be of more interest to pros All that Sony needs to make this a potentially very attractive camera from day one is a 28, a 35 and a 50; superwides and Noctilux equivalents are largely the preserve of amateurs rather than professionals. If Sony can pull this off, there's a big market for a relatively compact and light full frame camera with the reliability and glitch-free operation of something like a 5DIII. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted September 17, 2013 Share #324 Posted September 17, 2013 Sony and Zeiss are walking a tight rope at least to begin the new FF NEX system. They have to build a lens line from the ground up that can not be too large and expensive to begin with; the mirrorless cameras are significantly shallower and frequently smaller and lighter than DSLRs. Sony and Zeiss need to begin with smaller, lighter, and less expensive prime and zoom lenses to capture enough interest of the public to buy into the new camera system. As the system grows they will introduce faster, larger, heavier, and inevitably more expensive lenses that may be of more interest to pros and those needing faster optics. But, to get to that point and for a mature lens line it is going to take years. In the mean time there will also be hundreds or thousands of legacy manual focus lenses available to those that purchase the new camera. Leica too offers slower, smaller, lighter lenses in their system that are fine performing optics. Rich Sony makes great cameras and I am sure the FF Nex will be great. Most of this thread is speculation on a camera that isn't Leica, so it should probably be in the digital forum. Sony has repeatedly shown that it doesn't get it with lenses. Sony should not go for anything cheap, it should push the boat out like it did with the RX1 and produce expensive showpiece lenses first. Fuji did. I just cant see the attraction of a FF camera with a bunch of f2.8 lenses. Even a bunch of f2 lenses is quite boring, which is why I was never attracted to the Contax G series. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 17, 2013 Share #325 Posted September 17, 2013 All that Sony needs to make this a potentially very attractive camera from day one is a 28, a 35 and a 50; superwides and Noctilux equivalents are largely the preserve of amateurs rather than professionals. If Sony can pull this off, there's a big market for a relatively compact and light full frame camera with the reliability and glitch-free operation of something like a 5DIII. But professionals don't bring in the money; amateurs do. Sony would be pretty stupid to bring out a NEX that was not aimed at the amateur market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 17, 2013 Share #326 Posted September 17, 2013 Sony makes great cameras and I am sure the FF Nex will be great.Most of this thread is speculation on a camera that isn't Leica, so it should probably be in the digital forum. Agree; The thread has drifted to Sony-only Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted September 17, 2013 Share #327 Posted September 17, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) But professionals don't bring in the money; amateurs do. Sony would be pretty stupid to bring out a NEX that was not aimed at the amateur market. It's really not that straightforward. The reality is that if Sony attract high profile professionals early on to a full frame NEX it will have a strong gravitational pull when it comes to amateur sales. Do you imagine that Canon and Nikon's respective decisions to supply VII and Noor with free equipment are driven primarily by altruism? Celebrity endorsement sells, and that's why manufacturers would rather see their cameras hanging elegantly from the shoulders of Chris Morris and and Yuri Kozyrev at Perpignan than they would the same cameras resting on the portly stomachs of late middle-aged lawyers and dentists while they go on vacation. Outside of the world of high end medium format digital every supposed "pro" camera sells in much larger numbers to amateurs than to working photographers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2013 Share #328 Posted September 17, 2013 It's really not that straightforward. The reality is that if Sony attract high profile professionals early on to a full frame NEX it will have a strong gravitational pull when it comes to amateur sales. Do you imagine that Canon and Nikon's respective decisions to supply VII and Noor with free equipment are driven primarily by altruism? Celebrity endorsement sells, and that's why manufacturers would rather see their cameras hanging elegantly from the shoulders of Chris Morris and and Yuri Kozyrev at Perpignan than they would the same cameras resting on the portly stomachs of late middle-aged lawyers and dentists while they go on vacation. Outside of the world of high end medium format digital every supposed "pro" camera sells in much larger numbers to amateurs than to working photographers. There are more lawyers and dentists in (very) good shape than you would believe. Hasselblad stated, that they sell more to amateurs in the Far East (outside of Japan!) than to professional photographers in the USA. (This was before the arrival of the Lunar, which I don't think sells at all.) Consider a Sony mirrorless FF and a Noctilux 1.0 and will decide right before Christmas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 17, 2013 Share #329 Posted September 17, 2013 There are more lawyers and dentists in (very) good shape than you would believe..... ...and also more people who don't have any idea about who are Chris Morris and Yuri Kozyrev (I am one... ) Anyway, even for hardcore Leicistes like me, these rumors / expectations / announcements from Sony are very welcome : the perennial comparision to Ni/Ca is boring... ... the only significant new platform that came from them (Nikon 1) wasn't any exciting... is fine to see a manufacturer that tries hard (it seems) in pursuing something NEW... and so better if it is a brand that, personally, I respect and appreciate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted September 17, 2013 Share #330 Posted September 17, 2013 ...and also more people who don't have any idea about who are Chris Morris and Yuri Kozyrev (I am one... ) Google is your friend here, but you can rest assured that sufficient people know who they are to justify the largesse of Canon and Nikon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 17, 2013 Share #331 Posted September 17, 2013 ...and also more people who don't have any idea about who are Chris Morris and Yuri Kozyrev (I am one... ) Neither do i and i don't know what a poster above meant by "the portly stomachs of late middle-aged lawyers" either… Cruelty of youth i guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted September 17, 2013 Share #332 Posted September 17, 2013 I think you need such a stomach to rest your wallet on if you can afford an M.... @r4umour' has it the NEX FF is based on the Nex line of cameras, if so IMHO they will need to be a good bit more substantially made to appeal to professionals Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 17, 2013 Share #333 Posted September 17, 2013 I think you need such a stomach to rest your wallet on if you can afford an M.... @r4umour' has it the NEX FF is based on the Nex line of cameras, if so IMHO they will need to be a good bit more substantially made to appeal to professionals Gerry Why do you think that? I have a Nex 6 and it seems very well made. It can fire 10 fps so I have to figure the mechanical parts are pretty robust. The AF is usable for me but not quite up to pro DSLR levels. Many other features in the camera make it an ideal easy to use travel camera for me. However if this new Sony FF camera doesn't appeal to pros, other versions will be developed by various manufacturers over time that will. And while I like the compact size of the Nex 6, especially for travel, it is too small for me to hold when using heavier lenses... I can only get a couple of fingers on the grip so a larger add-on grip would be needed to make it as comfortable for me to use as a DSLR with many "pro size" lenses. So maybe having an option of a small body plus a larger grip will work, or maybe Sony has changed this on the FF Nex. I think a lot of this discussion about whether it would appeal to rich people, professionals, or Leica enthusiasts is speculative since we don't know the price or details about how well it will work. But the overall thing to keep in mind is this integrated EVF design is outlining the future for many other cameras that will follow. The Nex 6/7, Panasonic GX7 and some Fujis are similar but not FF. The M with EVF is pretty similar too. So Leica could easily make a model with an integrated EVF should they wish to. Impressively, the GX7 has an electronic shutter mode that allows for fast clips and silent shooting. I think getting the AF to work well on mirrorless cameras is the biggest challenge for pro FF cameras and we'll have to see if Sony has gotten a handle on that. (Or perhaps it uses the SLT Alpha adapter as on the APS Nex models.) The new Canon sensor based AF technology, as shown on the 70D, may allow Canon to make a FF mirrorless with AF that is good enough to switch some pros from their DSLRs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted September 17, 2013 Share #334 Posted September 17, 2013 I keep dithering over possibly buying a Nex 6, everytime I pick it up it seems flimsy and lightweight, compared to, for example, the Fuji XE-1. (or my Nikon dslr, never mind the Leica Ms!) I had the same feelings when I owned the Panasonic G1, all worked well, as I am sure the Nex does, but they don't inspire confidence in me that they will stand up to pro/hard use, or last for a long time. Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 17, 2013 Share #335 Posted September 17, 2013 I keep dithering over possibly buying a Nex 6, everytime I pick it up it seems flimsy and lightweight, compared to, for example, the Fuji XE-1. (or my Nikon dslr, never mind the Leica Ms!)I had the same feelings when I owned the Panasonic G1, all worked well, as I am sure the Nex does, but they don't inspire confidence in me that they will stand up to pro/hard use, or last for a long time. Gerry To me the appeal of the Nex 6 is its compact size and light weight. I only bought into the Nex once the lightweight collapsible 16-50 came out. If it was larger or heavier I would not have wanted it. I have no idea or expectation that it is as durable as a 1DX but it fills a different role for me and is quite inexpensive too. I have a 3 year Sony warranty that even covers drops so I really don't care. I have owned several lightweight compact p&s and bridge cameras over the years and none has ever failed. Why would you want the camera to be heavier than necessary? (I remember opening up a telephone once and there was a weight glued into the handset to give it some heft.) There is not much inside of a mirrorless body. No pentaprism or mirror box as in your Nikon. To me, the lighter the better and I don't see why weight would have anything to do with reliability unless one can show that a heavier shutter system is more durable.. And this certainly does not seem to be evident on the Leica M8 and M9. (The rangefinder is also susceptible to shock.) Before long bodies may not even have mechanical shutters. What other parts could benefit by beefier construction? Will the knobs or buttons fail? On bicycles you pay hundreds or thousands more to save a few grams or ounces on some components. I think getting the weight down on a camera may show good engineering. (It doesn't take a good engineer to build a really heavy bridge.) The most durable "pro" camera I have owned is a 4 ounce GoPro which continues to work perfectly despite a crash onto concrete from about 40 feet in the air. (It was in its plastic case.) The quadcopter carrying it suffered quite a bit more damage. $3000 but you get light weight aerodynamic front and back wheels... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/214267-the-sony-a7-thread-merged/?do=findComment&comment=2423136'>More sharing options...
johnwolf Posted September 17, 2013 Share #336 Posted September 17, 2013 I keep dithering over possibly buying a Nex 6, everytime I pick it up it seems flimsy and lightweight, compared to, for example, the Fuji XE-1. (or my Nikon dslr, never mind the Leica Ms!)I had the same feelings when I owned the Panasonic G1, all worked well, as I am sure the Nex does, but they don't inspire confidence in me that they will stand up to pro/hard use, or last for a long time. Gerry It is pretty disarming to handle one of these after working with a DSLR or M. But after owning one for a while, your perception may well be inverted. I shot for many years with DSLRs and various Ms, but more recently with a Nex 7 and Ricoh GR. The other day I picked up my friend's D700 and could not imagine how I once carried something like that. It's all what you get used to. But I agree; sometimes these mirrorless wonders just don't feel like real cameras. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 17, 2013 Share #337 Posted September 17, 2013 ... But I agree; sometimes these mirrorless wonders just don't feel like real cameras. John That was also the view going from Speed Graphics to 35mm which used to be called "miniature cameras." The entire concept of what constitutes a "pro" camera is in flux. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted September 17, 2013 Share #338 Posted September 17, 2013 No problem wth light weight per se, although I dont mind a bit of 'heft' to help hold still, I have got used to cameras in the 450-650 gramme range, having used the Ms and Nikon film bodies for about 50 years. Light weight used to mean flimsy but thats not so with modern materials. I left off buying a Nikon dslr until there was one that was light enough, and could use my old manual lenses, thats a D7000, I wouldn't dream of lugging a kilo of bulky Nikon around, with another half a kilo of lens on it. With the Nex, it just seems to me that the switches, buttons and the hinges of the rear screen look/feel less than ideal. Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted September 17, 2013 Share #339 Posted September 17, 2013 The low end market has been destroyed by mobile phones ....... The very high end (financially) market is pretty limited and provides a showcase for companies and a development platform where expensive technology trickles down eventually into mainstream...... The cash is all in the middle ..... and at the moment that is full of choice and pretty cut-throat.... you need pretty innovative product to entice people away from their current 'system' and margins are not great..... that's where the NEX will be ..... a few more eye catching gizmos and a bit better performance .... aimed mainly to get existing users to upgrade.... Leica is way adrift of all this ..... and a niche product relying on a particularly deranged and dedicated user base who moan endlessly about it's deficiencies and the potential superiority of other products ..... but rarely actually get divorced from it .... For most of us a NEX FF would be a bit on the side ..... but not a long term substitute for a relatively dull old 'reliable' Leica.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted September 19, 2013 Share #340 Posted September 19, 2013 Sony Alpha Rumors has reported the release of the 3rd FF Sony NEX lens- Zeiss 24-70mm zoom: (SR5) New Zeiss 24-70mm FE (Full Frame E-mount) lens coming too with the NEX-FF in October! | sonyalpharumors The lens is to be announced or being available with the FF NEX camera in mid October. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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