wlaidlaw Posted July 31, 2013 Share #101 Posted July 31, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) DSLRs have a problem with dust on their sensors, mirrorless exchangeable lens cameras have a more pronounced problem with dust on their sensors, some brands have a dust reduction system which is about as effective as a blower bulb. So, is you don't want dust, learn to clean your sensor, or get somebody to do it for you, or buy a fixed-lens camera. Basically the only alternative is to use film. And deal with dust in the darkroom and learn to retouch. Jaap, I am afraid I disagree. 2 days of bouncing around Addo Elephant park in South Africa this winter in a shock-absorber-less open Land Rover and my M9 needed a shovel to clean the sensor. We taped a piece of windscreen washer tubing into a car vacuum cleaner to vacuum the chamber out. I had been changing the lenses far more often on the Olympus EP-2 than the M9, which had my 90 Elmarit on it virtually all the time. On the EP-2 I was frequently swapping from the Oly 12-50 to my Vario Elmar 80-200 R. The EP-2 had hardly any dust at all on the sensor. A quick wipe with an Arctic Butterfly and it was as good as new. I was amazed how effective the built in system was. I believe the system on my new EP-5 is even better as it shakes in 5 vectors, rather than the 2 of the EP-2. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here Leica M 240 what is going on. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted July 31, 2013 Share #102 Posted July 31, 2013 Wilson, I am surprised at that as I take the camera out yearly for a fortnight into the dry African bush and believe me, you don't go sensor cleaning in a dusty tent. The only thing I needed was a daily blow with the bulb blower to keep the sensor acceptably clean. This was using the M8, M9 and Monchrom, and with open-air lens changes thrown in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brill64 Posted July 31, 2013 Share #103 Posted July 31, 2013 Exactly !!!Buy your Lamborghini and then bring to a real expert to get it working properly. Completely normal. Keep on repeating "It's normal, it's normal, it's normal" a few more thousand times and maybe we can all be hypnotised, as obviously a number of people here are already. Tadeyev Ask any Lamborghini or Ferrari owner & they will agree with you. & regarding the sensor... Well it is! A sensor needs cleaning periodically in any camera over time & often straight out of the box & that's a fact.! dust is pretty unavoidable unless of course one keeps their camera hermetically sealed, untested & doesn't change lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satureyes Posted July 31, 2013 Share #104 Posted July 31, 2013 I swear the posts in this forum become more banal every day. IMO - if you are spending 10000 on kit, and have a massive Apple display and all the works, then you surely are at least able to realise the limitations of a system - and in this case dust. Unless I've missed something here - the OP is complaining that there's too much dust - rather than a technical fault. I had to clean my sensor the 2 days after I got the camera. Fact of life. I'd say if you're not happy with this then Leica M isn't for you - but then again no camera will be for you if you are examining the sensor at pixel level for dust. I'd wager this chap isn't a pro photographer. If he was - he'd be out taking photos and earning a living with this excellent tool. Still - the sheer stupidity of some people here always provides some light relief when waiting on images to import and export! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 31, 2013 Share #105 Posted July 31, 2013 Wilson, I am surprised at that as I take the camera out yearly for a fortnight into the dry African bush and believe me, you don't go sensor cleaning in a dusty tent. The only thing I needed was a daily blow with the bulb blower to keep the sensor acceptably clean. This was using the M8, M9 and Monchrom, and with open-air lens changes thrown in. Jaap, My M9 seems particularly bad for dust and noticeably worse than my M8. I did a car rally across the US last year, taking the M9 but just a MATE lens and did not take sensor cleaning equipment (we were limited to 1 squashy bag due to carrying 2 spare wheels and lots of spares in an 1970 Mercedes 280SL). The pictures when I processed them had to have a dust removal mask made in C1 for each day otherwise they looked as if they had measles. The M240 I am pleased to say seems to stay much cleaner, due I assume to the improved sealing. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scsambrook Posted July 31, 2013 Share #106 Posted July 31, 2013 DSLRs have a problem with dust on their sensors, mirrorless exchangeable lens cameras have a more pronounced problem with dust on their sensors, some brands have a dust reduction system which is about as effective as a blower bulb. QUOTE] Regarding jaapv's comment above, just one little point to make - My Lumix mirrorless G1 gets used outdoors as much as my Leica M8 and my Pentax K10 and sees more lens changing than either of them. Nevertheless, since I bought it secondhand over a year ago I've never needed to retouch any image from it, unlike the other two. The camera has not produced even a single dust spot, which I suppose to be the result of the "Supersonic Wave Filter" i.e the jiggly-thing that vibrates the low-pass filter. I carry no torch for mirrorless cameras and am not given to moaning about my Leica, but I'm pretty impressed with the G1's demonstrably superior dust-resistance. For me, no dust beats blowing, swabbing and retouching every time.( And yes... I do know the M8 lacks the filter and I'm not calling for Leica Camera to re-introduce it.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted July 31, 2013 Share #107 Posted July 31, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Then the new M9 also showed spots after a few weeks ... Every digital camera shows spots after a few weeks. It doesn't even take a few weeks. Any use of the of the camera will bring dust to the sensor, even just mounting a lens for the first time. If you shoot a white surface with the lens stopped down to f/16, any camera will show dust spots on the sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunil Posted July 31, 2013 Share #108 Posted July 31, 2013 In fact the factory delivers the car to the dealership dirty and covered in plastic sticky sheets, the dealer will clean it and charge for it. So if your analogy holds true the Leica dealer where the OP bought his M should have cleaned the sensor and charged him 100$ delivery costs.... OK, point taken. But I still want a perfectly functioning camera when I pay $7K for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 31, 2013 Share #109 Posted July 31, 2013 Learning makes us happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2013 Share #110 Posted July 31, 2013 DSLRs have a problem with dust on their sensors, mirrorless exchangeable lens cameras have a more pronounced problem with dust on their sensors, some brands have a dust reduction system which is about as effective as a blower bulb. Regarding jaapv's comment above, just one little point to make - My Lumix mirrorless G1 gets used outdoors as much as my Leica M8 and my Pentax K10 and sees more lens changing than either of them. Nevertheless, since I bought it secondhand over a year ago I've never needed to retouch any image from it, unlike the other two. The camera has not produced even a single dust spot, which I suppose to be the result of the "Supersonic Wave Filter" i.e the jiggly-thing that vibrates the low-pass filter. I carry no torch for mirrorless cameras and am not given to moaning about my Leica, but I'm pretty impressed with the G1's demonstrably superior dust-resistance. For me, no dust beats blowing, swabbing and retouching every time.( And yes... I do know the M8 lacks the filter and I'm not calling for Leica Camera to re-introduce it.) That is quite correct, the dust reduction systems are quite good at removing loose dust, like a bulb blower or sensor brush. For sticky dust and oil they are not effective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efreed2754 Posted July 31, 2013 Share #111 Posted July 31, 2013 Hmmm.... Had my M9P cleaned just before spending over a month in France and Italy. Early on spots showed up. Is it possible these are not dust spots but moisture spots, which understand can develop in high humidity when the sensor heats up in use. If so it doesn't matter if we use one lens as the source is not (just) dirt or dust. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas Soldati Posted August 1, 2013 Share #112 Posted August 1, 2013 Not only the sensor is more exposed to dust in a mirrorless camera but an another factor that can also play a role is the position or the thickness of the cover glass. Because Leica design requires a thin cover glass, the dust on it create smaller but more focused spot on the image and therefore probably more visible than a more refocused one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted August 2, 2013 Share #113 Posted August 2, 2013 Took delivery of the eyelead dust sticking brush thingy and filtered blower as recommended by Jaap. both seem to be excellent products and the sensor cleaning toll really works and got of dust that the arctic butterfly wouldn't, also no more worries about picking up crud and oil from the side of the chamber as with the arctic butterfly (happened to me when M9 was nearly new and the bristles got oil on them) So thanks Jaap for the heads up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanetomlane Posted August 2, 2013 Share #114 Posted August 2, 2013 On Jaap's recommendation I've also ordered the Eyelead Sensor cleaner .... thanks Jaap. I've had two M8's and an M9 and I have found the M9 to require much more cleaning than either of the M8's. I noticed it to be particularly bad when it was new and required less cleaning as it got older. It was also bad after I had the P upgrade, but again it improved with age. Doesn't really concern me as it's easy to wet, or dry clean a sensor. The majority of people seem to want to make it into the "black-art" which it certainly isn't. _______________ Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanetomlane Posted August 5, 2013 Share #115 Posted August 5, 2013 Have now received the Eyelead sensor cleaner and it works great. Thanks for the recommendation Jaap. ______________ Regards, Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emile de Leon Posted August 6, 2013 Share #116 Posted August 6, 2013 Regarding mirrorless cameras.. I use a Panasonic GH1 I got new around 4 to 5 years ago..I've never cleaned the sensor..not even 1x in all those years. This cam doesn't know the word dust..or oil on sensor. I mostly use a Noct f1 and a 35 1.4 asph on it that I used to use on my M6. I change lenses a lot though..from Lumix to Leica to Nikon lenses. I use the GH1 for everything..website work.. concert videos..and fun in the sun personal stuff.. The cam has been moved around in my 25 year old dusty Billingham bag that's been around the world and back but is showing its age now..and starting to deteriorate..really dusty in there.. The GH1 is really covered with fine dust all over..so much that I just look at it and just think.I really should vacuum off this cam..but never do and just blow the dust off or wipe quickly with finger.. The only times I used the sensor wiggle cleany thingy was when I 1st bought it..to see if it worked..and maybe 1x a couple of years ago.. Not all cams are dust magnets.. Or spend more time in the shop than actually working.. I really wish Leica would get its act together.. If it ever does..I'll be the 1st one to buy a new FF rangefinder..but for the cash they charge..I really think..people are way to forgiving of them..as the cameras don't seem ready for prime time.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted August 6, 2013 Share #117 Posted August 6, 2013 If you only use a Noctilux and 35 Summilux on it wide open you'll probably never see any dust that's on your sensor. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanetomlane Posted August 6, 2013 Share #118 Posted August 6, 2013 If you only use a Noctilux and 35 Summilux on it wide open you'll probably never see any dust that's on your sensor. Pete. Can I quote you on that Pete when I try to justify a Nocitlux to her who must be obeyed? I could try to convince her that the investment will be recouped many times over by what I'll save in cleaning fluid. ______________________ Cheers, Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 6, 2013 Share #119 Posted August 6, 2013 Can I quote you on that Pete when I try to justify a Nocitlux to her who must be obeyed? I could try to convince her that the investment will be recouped many times over by what I'll save in cleaning fluid.______________________ Cheers, Tom I think we need to start a "sticky". Excuses to SWMBO (she who must be obeyed - Rumpole at the Bailey) for buying a Noctilux/APO Summicron/M240/S kit, etc, etc. We could even hold a competition for best excuse Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 6, 2013 Share #120 Posted August 6, 2013 Just distract her with a large purchase of Vim at the same time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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