luigi bertolotti Posted June 13, 2013 Share #21 Posted June 13, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) One of the most pointless things we, as customers, could do is speculating about Leica Camera's possible "production issues." Exactly... and the quoted "prescribed words" from Solms does confirm that is vane to pretend to enter into factory-related issues.... Whilst the statement about the strap lug problem was well detailed, the above bulletin says exactly nothing that isn't well reknown (factory is small, QC controls are demanding, success of M significant....) I think that the new X intro has little of no impact on this (I haven't read details on X vario.... but seems to me it has not the CMOSIS sensor). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 Hi luigi bertolotti, Take a look here Production Issues with M240?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
StephenPatterson Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share #22 Posted June 13, 2013 Exactly... and the quoted "prescribed words" from Solms does confirm that is vane to pretend to enter into factory-related issues.... Whilst the statement about the strap lug problem was well detailed, the above bulletin says exactly nothing that isn't well reknown (factory is small, QC controls are demanding, success of M significant....) Which would make sense except for Leica's ability to apparently produce the X Vario in significant quantity. Is the X Vario not built under exacting QA standards? Again, don't just drink the Kool-Aid...it does not make you more loyal to the brand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted June 13, 2013 Share #23 Posted June 13, 2013 ..........our commitment to absolute quality. .......................and the high-precision in our production maintains our high standard. ’ .................................... that must satisfy the most stringent demands on precision engineering, painstaking care and quality. .......................after being tested, checked and adjusted for so long until its flawless finish and performance are guaranteed and fulfil the exhaustive quality demands ....................... commitment to precision and quality.....................................The endurance, reliability ...................... ................................uncompromising quality standards It sounds like they're going to start properly adjusting the rangefinders before they're shipped out. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tanks Posted June 13, 2013 Share #24 Posted June 13, 2013 It is a normal trend for luxury products. I had to pull some strings to get my last wife a Hermes Birkin bag as the supposedly nonexistent waiting list was years at the time. If I want some of the more esoteric Swiss watches I have to call a cousin that has connections, otherwise it takes months. What annoys me is not the wait, but not knowing how long the wait is. When I order other products with lead times I am told the manufacture times, whether it is five days, 6 months , or 2 years. If Leica could say xxx days after order we ship to a dealer everyone would be happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted June 13, 2013 Share #25 Posted June 13, 2013 I would personally rather wait and get a perfectly functioning product than get a rushed product with defects. But as Stephen said, as a client, it is in my interest to know what are the weaknesses or problematic parts that are causing the delays. Otoh, we will probably never know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted June 13, 2013 Share #26 Posted June 13, 2013 One of the most pointless things we, as customers, could do is speculating about Leica Camera's possible "production issues."Seriously? Seriously. As a customer I want as much information as possible concerning the equipment I buy from Leica and it's suitability for use in the field. For instance the sensor cracking issue on the M9 was a huge issue for me ... In other words, you're interested to know about possible product issues. That's an entirely different topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Helm Posted June 13, 2013 Share #27 Posted June 13, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) There are just over 600 Leica M dealers worldwide (according to Leica's website). At the production pace of the M9-P of over 100 bodies per workday every dealer should get an M every six workdays... Or at 25% of this production capacity and supposing they started building them beginning this year that would mean an average of 5 per dealer. My dealer has got 1 body two months ago.... In Denmark, 2 Ms have been delivered through the official importer so far. That is 2 copies per 5 and a half million inhabitants. Similar statements can be found for quite some other regions. I would doubt that Leica has delivered more than 600 copies world wide so far, which is a production rate far below the 50 copies per workday some assume. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share #28 Posted June 13, 2013 In other words, you're interested to know about possible product issues. That's an entirely different topic. But often related. It's possible that QA issues and component rejections are responsible for the low production rate, which might or might not manifest as problems down the road. But I don't think at this point the problem is easily explained away by the "Prescribed Wording" message supplied to dealers. Those phrases sound eerily similar to marketing hyperbole about the X Vario. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 13, 2013 Share #29 Posted June 13, 2013 Would you ask Riva or Bentley why you must wait so long folks? If Leica were a luxury brand, as some armchair CEOs do suggest here, they should manage to have longer waiting lists instead of shipping cameras with faulty strap lugs, damaged screw heads or dirty sensors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted June 13, 2013 Share #30 Posted June 13, 2013 Would you ask Riva or Bentley why you must wait so long folks? If Leica were a luxury brand, as some armchair CEOs do suggest here, they should manage to have longer waiting lists instead of shipping cameras with faulty strap lugs, damaged screw heads or dirty sensors. What's your point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted June 13, 2013 Share #31 Posted June 13, 2013 Why should one presume that there is any relationship between assembly of an M body and the X product? Germany has a very large manufacturing base with many subcontractors that must be available to whip together pallet loads worth of X cameras in the time it takes to make one day's M240 output in Leica's own shop. My point is that the lenses and bodies that combine into an X camera are probably assembled by subcontractors using mostly automated processes, whereas the M240 and MM are assembled by hand from bins of little parts or small sub-assemblies. I do not see how constraints on the latter have anything to do with robustness of the former. My dealer told me yesterday, incidentally, that the X Vario is flying out of his Leica store. So perhaps Leica does have some marketing insight for the POS market... I was amazed, as $3k for this market point seemed as far off to me as that crazy Hasselblad thing with the wooden handle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share #32 Posted June 13, 2013 Why should one presume that there is any relationship between assembly of an M body and the X product? Germany has a very large manufacturing base with many subcontractors that must be available to whip together pallet loads worth of X cameras in the time it takes to make one day's M240 output in Leica's own shop. I seriously doubt that the X Vario is built anywhere except Leica Portugal and Solms, just like the M240. As for the new camera "flying off the shelves" that is not uncommon...even for the X2 at first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted June 13, 2013 Share #33 Posted June 13, 2013 To me, these production delays leave the feeling that in 2014 Leica will finally have enough M's sitting in dealer's stores that they will be readily available to a disenchanted audience that no longer cares. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 13, 2013 Share #34 Posted June 13, 2013 It sounds like they're going to start properly adjusting the rangefinders before they're shipped out.Pete Ha! Exactly what I was going to say! Sounds like maybe they gave ol' One Eyed Pete the boot finally and cameras are actually coming off the line with the rf in proper calibration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted June 13, 2013 Share #35 Posted June 13, 2013 The X1 wasn't build by Leica, only final assembly, hardly justified the Label "Made in Germany" - but as long as no competitor is left to bring it to court... I don't think the X2/Vario is any different, when I asked if the lens is made by Leica (Uwe Weller/Solms have world-class experience in making just that) I got no answer... Also explains the low-specs (f2.8 fixed/f6.4 vario - lower skills needed for production). They hired a Japanese engineer (from Panasonic?) about one year before they brought the X1 to the market - obviously they want to keep investments down. That's also the reason why the X-series doesn't share any components/competences they developed with the M/S-series - no custom sensor, firmware, AF... Just look at the battery door mechanics... If I want such a camera, I prefer a cheaper Fuji or Sony and I'm sure they will come-up with with a zoom camera as well. Highly automated production is a myth in most areas of lens/camera assembly, they never developed the necessary skills but rather off-shored production. Even regular <1000€ Canon or Nikons are mostly assembled by hand - with hardly any calibration but fixed processes. An Iphone propably contains as much hand assembly as an M... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 13, 2013 Share #36 Posted June 13, 2013 :confused:Uwe Weller is not a lens maker, but an engineering firm that builds - amongst many other things - lens mounts. And the salaries in Japan are similar to those in Germany, so hiring an "el-cheapo" Japanese designer would have been for his expertise, not for his alleged low salary. I fear we have some prejudice showing in your post. Especially as foreigners in Germany are required by law to get the same pay as Germans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted June 13, 2013 Share #37 Posted June 13, 2013 Just to throw some fat into this fire, I relate that I have asked a completely connected, major Leica dealer (whose name I will protect even though he is not my dealer:)) where the X series and its lenses were made. He answered that he just did not know... Well, when I watch all of his video posts with Leica management, I can only assume that he does not want to know. I think any German manufacture is probably good, and hours of Solms QC and calibration even better on the M and its unrivaled glass! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 13, 2013 Share #38 Posted June 13, 2013 One of the most pointless things we, as customers, could do is speculating about Leica Camera's possible "production issues." Easy to say when you've received yours. I have a number of shoots where I would like to NOT use the 5DII as it's too in your face. I'd like to know if I can use my preordered M240. One is in 3 months, the other in 7. I have no clue, none, f it will be here by then, nor does my dealer. It pisses me off quite frankly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted June 13, 2013 Share #39 Posted June 13, 2013 When people talk of the mystique of Leica, are they referring to its ability to stay in business? Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magosak Posted June 13, 2013 Share #40 Posted June 13, 2013 To me, these production delays leave the feeling that in 2014 Leica will finally have enough M's sitting in dealer's stores that they will be readily available to a disenchanted audience that no longer cares. +1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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