Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario

[mjh]

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Did you ever study the whole "New Coke" fiasco?

The New Coke fiasco was a case where a vendor introduced a product that had received the highest praise in blind tests as the best thing since sliced bread (or rather, since Pepsi), only to fail in the marketplace. The X Vario could be a camera that everyone, if asked, would have told Leica not to build, but that might still turn out a commercial success. (Honestly I have no idea how it will work out for Leica but then I am pretty sure nobody on this forum has.)

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[doolittle]

Unlike the M240, the M-E and the MM, personally I have no interest in this camera what so ever. Truth is that while I won't be buying an X-V, I won't be buying an M240, M-E or MM anytime soon either.

 

So what ever my opinion is, the success of this camera will be measured in units sold and margin achieved.

 

Now to find another rumour thread to follow, they are so exciting.

[jplaurel]

It's not that people wanted a cheap M-mount camera. What people want is a compact M-mount camera with an integrated viewfinder. I have an M8 and an M9. They are great, but the problem is that focusing is hit and miss due do the back and front focus issues with the fast lenses. I've had my Summilux 35 and Summicron 90 APO ASPH back at Leica, along with the bodies, for calibration to no avail. They are spot on at infinity, but the 35 back focuses wide open at close distances and even more so at f2.8 or so. The 90 is really difficult to focus accurately wide open. The 135 APO Telyt is virtually impossible to focus with the M9 at anything but infinity, stopped down in bright light. On the other hand, these lenses can be focused very accurately with the EVF on the Olympus OMD, much more so than with the M9 itself!

 

The real innovation would have been a compact M-Mount body with integrated EVF focus peaking. Give it an APS-H sensor and call it a "Mini M" if you must. At least that would be an apt name. An M8 is no substitute because of the inherent problems in using a rangefinder with lenses such as I've described above.

 

The market of people who don't care to know or understand anything about shutter speeds, apertures and lens speed will be perfectly happy with rebranded Panasonic point and shoots, as long as they wear the Leica badge.

 

for those who wanted a 'cheap' M-mount camera....buy an M8. still a big sensor even compared to these, and one hell of a camera for MUCH cheaper than this miserable little camera.

[StephenPatterson]

The New Coke fiasco was a case where a vendor introduced a product that had received the highest praise in blind tests as the best thing since sliced bread (or rather, since Pepsi), only to fail in the marketplace. The X Vario could be a camera that everyone, if asked, would have told Leica not to build, but that might still turn out a commercial success. (Honestly I have no idea how it will work out for Leica but then I am pretty sure nobody on this forum has.)

 

There seems to be almost universal consensus that this camera is not for anyone here. Well, when a company starts making products that don't appeal to it's base customers then something is either terribly wrong or terribly new. I agree that this camera could be a hit, especially with rich Chinese who want a fashion brand camera that isn't made in Japan. But that's an awfully big "If". The luxury buying market here is not like it was a few years ago.

[earleygallery]

I hate the camera/car comparisons we often read on here, but, an example that springs immediately to mind is the Porsche Cayenne. I doubt many 911 fans were chomping at the bit to buy a large 4X4.

[Guest Essemmlee]

It has taken Leica a long time to create a camera that is already about 2 years out of date. My NEX 6 has far superior specs and with my existing Leica lenses is just superb.

 

If only they'd have allowed the use of M lenses they would have sold so many more of the one thing that generates maximum revenue. How difficult would it have been?

[dwbell]

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Hopefully I'm clear on thinking the marketing was crap and poorly aimed but having no opinion on the actual camera other than it isn't the one I think should be at the end of a "Mini M" teaser.

 

The images look pretty nice from Jono, but that's always the case and is down to the photographer. I'm not in the market for such a camera.

 

Again, I defend my right to not be "all in" , black or white, with us or terrorist. I think the marketing totally blew, doesn't mean I think the camera is crap.

[dwbell]

I hate the camera/car comparisons we often read on here, but, an example that springs immediately to mind is the Porsche Cayenne. I doubt many 911 fans were chomping at the bit to buy a large 4X4.

 

And sensibly Porsche didn't market it as a "Bigger 911"!

[pgk]

Didn't make 100 pages after all:D.

[doolittle]

It's not that people wanted a cheap M-mount camera. What people want is a compact M-mount camera with an integrated viewfinder. I have an M8 and an M9. They are great, but the problem is that focusing is hit and miss due do the back and front focus issues with the fast lenses. I've had my Summilux 35 and Summicron 90 APO ASPH back at Leica, along with the bodies, for calibration to no avail. They are spot on at infinity, but the 35 back focuses wide open at close distances and even more so at f2.8 or so. The 90 is really difficult to focus accurately wide open. The 135 APO Telyt is virtually impossible to focus with the M9 at anything but infinity, stopped down in bright light. On the other hand, these lenses can be focused very accurately with the EVF on the Olympus OMD, much more so than with the M9 itself!

 

Leica already have a camera to solve those problems: the M240 (EVF optional!)

 

 

The real innovation would have been a compact M-Mount body with integrated EVF focus peaking. Give it an APS-H sensor and call it a "Mini M" if you must. At least that would be an apt name. An M8 is no substitute because of the inherent problems in using a rangefinder with lenses such as I've described above.

 

 

I agree, an M240 without rangefinder and optical finder, would be an interesting camera. Maybe Leica will make one in the future. I have no doubt some company will release a full frame evf compact system camera before too long. I definitely think there is a demand for one. Maybe Leica will miss the boat, or maybe they are fine the way they are.

 

I think the problem with the Mini M campaign was the expectations it raised. If the X-V was released without any fuss, there would have been far less interest in its announcement.

 

I hope Leica's R&D department are reading these threads and maybe taking some inspiration from them

[M11 for me]

And can one tell me the crop factor? In some reports the speak of 1.3. But 70mm would be a factor of 1.3.

 

What is the correct factor?

[Peter H]

I hate the camera/car comparisons we often read on here, but, an example that springs immediately to mind is the Porsche Cayenne. I doubt many 911 fans were chomping at the bit to buy a large 4X4.

 

True, and apparently Porsche now sell more 4x4s than 911s.

 

Unlike Leica, who don't sell cars.

[andybarton]

And can one tell me the crop factor? In some reports the speak of 1.3. But 70mm would be a factor of 1.3.

 

What is the correct factor?

 

There is no crop factor, as the lens is designed to work with the chip in the camera. It doesn't take lenses designed for full frame 35mm cameras

 

There are 35mm equivalent focal lengths marked on the barrel

[andybarton]

True, and apparently Porsche now sell more 4x4s than 911s.

 

Unlike Leica, who don't sell cars.

 

Leica will probably sell more of these than they do Ms. And with fewer after-care and warranty costs too.

 

If you are in a business to make money, isn't that an attractive proposition?

[masjah]

What's the problem?

 

Stating the obvious, it is what it is - it's essentially an X2 with zoom.

 

Stating the obvious, so far as the aperture is concerned, you can't re-write the laws of optics. If you want to maintain the optical quality that Leica want, and keep the physical size of the lens compatible with the rest of the camera, then this is what you get....

 

...And it's got a decent sized sensor in a relatively compact body.

 

Stating the obvious, it's not cheap because it's made by Leica, with no mass production; t'was ever thus, and if you can find an equivalent model elsewhere that is cheaper then you'd be mad not to buy it.

 

Myself, I won't be buying it, because I'll eventually get my 240 with M-R adapter and use my 28-90 zoom.

 

My guess is that it will sell well, and make Leica money, which is what we all want, for obvious reasons.

 

I suspect that the main reason that people are upset is Leica's frankly silly teaser campaign, which implied by it's title that we were going to get something related to the M system (either in terms of lenses, or rangefinder, or both).

[dwbell]

Cayenne sales to the Middle East apparenly funded the ground up new 991.

[lct]

And can one tell me the crop factor?...

1.53x

[luigi bertolotti]

Has anyone REAL numbers made by X1 and X2 ? I think that this is the only figure that can be significant to guess if this camera will or not be succesful.

 

I continue to think that Leica Mktg & Planning isn't made by stupids (ok... the "MiniM" teaser was a silly idea by someone... ) so I tend to think that the X Series has given them a result (in terms of money and numbers) sufficient to justify a natural follow up which is even a bit more stylish...

 

Anyway,,. nothing imho that can be of interest for traditional M users.... I think that in the forum we have seen that people like us would prefer a 3rd party body (Nex or so) provided that it can mount OUR lenses... with the possible addon of a native kit zoom.

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[StephenPatterson]

Leica will probably sell more of these than they do Ms. And with fewer after-care and warranty costs too.

 

If you are in a business to make money, isn't that an attractive proposition?

 

Not difficult to outsell the M240 when they are shipping next to none. I've already heard from a few dealers that they are receiving X Vario cameras today.

[Paolo.Battista]

Hands on: Leica X Vario review | Compact cameras Reviews | TechRadar

dunk

 

Indeed the pictures they uploaded together with the review show the biggest problem of this model: that is the combination of a very slow lens (at least at the normal to tele end) and the absence of any type of image stabilization.

Looking at the portrait, you can see that even in somewhat good light you need to push ISO at very high levels (1600 in the case of this shot) to have a shutting speed that could be acceptable, thus compromising the image quality in respect to other faster solutions.

 

I think that an Oly E-P5 plus the Panasonic 14-35 f:2,8 set (a combination of roughly the same weight and dimensions) has lot of advantages in this case.

This doesn't apply to the X2 for instance, that is clearly well in line with the rest of the competition in its segment.