farnz Posted May 20, 2012 Share #81 Â Posted May 20, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's not that simple. ... Isn't it? Any commercial concern is in business to make profit and it will do that by selling its wares at a price that the market will stand. If Leica alienates a significant proportion of its customer base by charging more for its wares than its customers are prepared to pay then profits will fall and it would need to reduce its prices or attract customers in another way such as bundling wares etc to remain in business. Â Leica doesn't show loyalty to its customers by means of pricing at a level that all can afford, it shows loyalty by continuing to service the products its customers have already purchased. Traditionally the prices of Leica's products have been at the high end and yet it has survived so it appears to understand its market(s) well enough. Â ... Some would say that Leica is alienating a significant portion of their customer base ... With the greatest respect I detect subtext that reads "Leica might alienate me because it is charging more than I want to pay.";) Â Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 20, 2012 Posted May 20, 2012 Hi farnz, Take a look here What do you think of the price of the new 50mm Summicron?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
farnz Posted May 20, 2012 Share #82 Â Posted May 20, 2012 What happened on January 18, 2012 that made Leica stock jump? (rhetorical) ... Since it was a rhetorical question I won't answer it (nor could I) but the graphic you've presented imho over-accentuates the jump by curtailing the Y-axis. If your graphic showed the Y-axis from 0 to 32 instead of 24 to 32 the jump, while perhaps still significant would look considerably smaller in real terms. Â Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sm23221 Posted May 20, 2012 Share #83 Â Posted May 20, 2012 Seems like everyone's talking about resolution only. Perhaps this lens also has very well controlled flare, great handling characteristics, great bokeh, contrast etc. Resolution isn't the only concern here - other lens characteristics have to be accounted for too with regard to the price. Little is known about the other defining factors right now but they may tip the scale in the "worth every penny" direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted May 20, 2012 Share #84 Â Posted May 20, 2012 The howls of protest that this lens is too expensive come, I'm afraid, from those who do not understand what's involved in developing cutting edge products. It's a case of diminishing returns where rapidy increasing complexity and cost yield smaller and smaller incremental benefits.do you have a single solid fact to back this argument up or is it an article of faith? Â Whilst I have no doubt that the lens was expensive to design- and is expensive to manufacture- this does not mean that the sale price is an accurate reflection of those costs or even tells us anything about them at all... Â The argument reminds me of the fallacy promoted by the major drug multinationals that R&D drives final costs. No high price = no R&D = no more new drugs. In actual fact those companies generally spend more money on marketing than they do on R and D- and they then charge what the market will bear- which is not necessarily what the item is intrinsically worth. This becomes clear when you look at the level of profit the companies can produce- and Leica is a case in point- they are clearly making very large profits on the M9- and very large expenditures on marketing and promotion. We actually don't know what their expenditure on R&D is... but we do know those new retail outlets are very significant expenditures. Â I personally doubt very much that the price of the lens- or the M9 titanium- the Hermes M9 or the standard M9 are determined (primarily) by the cost of production more than say brand name cachet and an understanding of their core market- and what IT can afford. For all we know Leica could sell this lens at half the list price and still be very profitable. It could be that they just make a modest return on the investment at current pricing: but I really, really doubt that. I would bet (a little) money that they make a very handsome mark up indeed... Â Whatever the case the fact is we do not know what the cost of production is- so we cannot say how price has been determined. Â Obviously it is absurd to point out how expensive mansions are- and to complain that one cannot afford one- and that they really should be cheaper- however I am a big fan of absurdism... and I think Leica is too. I guess they have a big laugh when they increase prices- and sales and demand increase accordingly... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted May 20, 2012 Share #85  Posted May 20, 2012 ...........The primary aim of any business is to maximise profit. If the business is not maximising available profit then its shareholders will soon demand that it does. Pete.  What about Chelsea and Manchester City?  (Obsessed? Me?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted May 20, 2012 Share #86  Posted May 20, 2012 What about Chelsea and Manchester City? (Obsessed? Me?)  Both trying to maximise profit with money generated through the Champions League.  Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted May 20, 2012 Share #87  Posted May 20, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sometimes I take pictures from things or people, that are just to far away. But my eyes see something , a detail at that moment and I just make that picture.  When I crop the capture after seeing it, I sometimes see the thing, but it is still to small, because it was to far away. The crop doesn't make the quality of the picture any better.  If it is possible with this lens to shoot pictures and crop them so far, that it can deliver the detail I saw in the first time.  If this is possible in future with the new M.Monochrom or M 10 it would give me a complete different perspective how to use a camera.  Instead of a 300mm or 500mm lens, I would take a apo sum 50mm and a camera and just crop so far until it is enough.  Imagine this: No more heavy stuff. No more long lenses. Just one small camera and one lens......Wasn't that what Barnack wanted?   Certainly I would buy this lens in a few years. Especially used, as I did with halve of my lenses and camera's  Crop until you drop ....:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted May 20, 2012 Share #88  Posted May 20, 2012 I just looked it up:In Leica Fotografie International ( 4/2006 and 6/2004) an aspherical 50mm Summicron is mentioned. The optical formula and performance characteristics are the very same but it also says that such a design was rejected because it would be too expensive... I guess the market conditions have changed. Let's see if it works out, as long as the "normal" lens-prices are not drastically increased because the "demand is just there"...  I read this article too. What worries me about photographing with such a lens ( and suitable camera M M of M 10 ) is the focussing: Is it precise enough, or the shutter speed: Is it fast enough to not get a blurry micro-picture.  I would be a pity to use a € 6000,- to get very big, but blurry pictures. At least that's what I thought using the Noctilux for a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted May 20, 2012 Share #89 Â Posted May 20, 2012 Sometimes I take pictures from things or people, that are just to far away. But my eyes see something , a detail at that moment and I just make that picture. Â When I crop the capture after seeing it, I sometimes see the thing, but it is still to small, because it was to far away. The crop doesn't make the quality of the picture any better. Â If it is possible with this lens to shoot pictures and crop them so far, that it can deliver the detail I saw in the first time. ... Paulus, Â If you're using modern, well-adjusted Leica lenses then I very much doubt that it's the lens's performance that's preventing you from seeing what you're looking for in your cropped picture because the lens's resolution is so high. I expect that it's the resolution of the film or sensor that is getting in the way and regrettably the 50/2 APO-Summicron-M ASPH can't change that. Â Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted May 20, 2012 Share #90  Posted May 20, 2012 Paulus, If you're using modern, well-adjusted Leica lenses then I very much doubt that it's the lens's performance that's preventing you from seeing what you're looking for in your cropped picture because the lens's resolution is so high. I expect that it's the resolution of the film or sensor that is getting in the way and regrettably the 50/2 APO-Summicron-M ASPH can't change that.  Pete.  You are right I think. The camera is still the problem. That's why I stressed on the combination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted May 20, 2012 Share #91 Â Posted May 20, 2012 The 50/2 APO-Summicron-M ASPH is not only a lens, it is a statement from Leica. "We can do it." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted May 20, 2012 Share #92 Â Posted May 20, 2012 Sometimes I take pictures from things or people, that are just to far away. But my eyes see something , a detail at that moment and I just make that picture. Â When I crop the capture after seeing it, I sometimes see the thing, but it is still to small, because it was to far away. The crop doesn't make the quality of the picture any better. [...] Â When you crop to, say, 500mm equivalent section of the picture, you are entering into not only resolution and other IQ issues, but camera shake. It is just the same as shooting with a 500mm. 1/4000th of a second might not be fast enough, but it will help insure less shake. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted May 20, 2012 Share #93 Â Posted May 20, 2012 When you crop to, say, 500mm equivalent section of the picture, you are entering into not only resolution and other IQ issues, but camera shake. It is just the same as shooting with a 500mm. 1/4000th of a second might not be fast enough, but it will help insure less shake.. Â Thank you pico, you are thinking the same as I did in # 88. That's what's worries me with such a lens. To prevent this. I must have a tripod , a faster shutter, or VR. Maybe in the end the 500mm with a sturdy monopod and a big camera as a contra weight will be the better choice? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted May 21, 2012 Share #94 Â Posted May 21, 2012 The 50/2 APO-Summicron-M ASPH is not only a lens, it is a statement from Leica. "We can do it." Â I would add a little to that: "We can do it: and We Can Charge It!" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 21, 2012 Share #95 Â Posted May 21, 2012 And you can repeat it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted May 21, 2012 Share #96 Â Posted May 21, 2012 I'd say this lens is has similar advanced technology as Summilux 24/21 and Noctilux and the price is similar too. The problem is that even Leica says it's a development of the old Summicron 50 even if it's totally different. If it had been a Summilux I don't think there would have been the same comments here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted May 21, 2012 Share #97 Â Posted May 21, 2012 Seems like everyone's talking about resolution only. Perhaps this lens also has very well controlled flare, great handling characteristics, great bokeh, contrast etc. Resolution isn't the only concern here - other lens characteristics have to be accounted for too with regard to the price. Little is known about the other defining factors right now but they may tip the scale in the "worth every penny" direction. Â Hoping this will help here's my set of images with this lens - Â 50 APO - a set on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickgrafixstop Posted May 21, 2012 Share #98 Â Posted May 21, 2012 I'm going to consider this lens right after I get my R10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted May 21, 2012 Share #99 Â Posted May 21, 2012 And you can repeat it. Â ... and you will buy it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted May 21, 2012 Share #100 Â Posted May 21, 2012 Hoping this will help here's my set of images with this lens -Â 50 APO - a set on Flickr The bokeh looks as impressive as the sharpness. Nice!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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