andybarton Posted May 14, 2012 Share #221 Posted May 14, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Deletion of the current Summicron from the list is inevitable, IMO. Even if it is still listed, it will become "unobtainable". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 14, 2012 Posted May 14, 2012 Hi andybarton, Take a look here New Summicron. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Peter H Posted May 14, 2012 Share #222 Posted May 14, 2012 You cannot compare MTF curves across focal lengths. And yet it would be only very slightly less fruitful than comparing them for the same focal length. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 14, 2012 Share #223 Posted May 14, 2012 Lars, you seem to be the person on this thread with the biggest axe to grind. First, I haven't, at least not often, read on this thread peoples post saying they "need" this lens. I think everybody understands that this is a luxury. I am buying one and I would wager to say I don't fit any of the characteristics you place on people buying this lens: I am not super rich, I do not NEED this lens, and finally I am 22. I am 76 and I have all the Leica lenses I am ever likely to need, or even want. So I do not have any personal axe to grind. I am out of the race. I am just worrying because I see a brand and a company whose products have been both unique AND desirable, go off in a dangerous direction. Carl Fabergé had a very fine workshop in Saint Petersburg. It made fabulous jewelry for the Tsar and his court, including those resplendent Easter eggs. I wonder what ever happened to the firm? I am buying this lens because I can AFFORD it and I WANT it. I do not yet have a cron and was actually planning on buying a lux to pair with my new M9 so, because I'm young and stupid, I thought I would just buy the new cron. Congratulations. Enjoy your blessings. Being young and stupid is not a crime, and at least the first problem is usually rectified by time, if not the second. The old and stupid man from he Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 14, 2012 Share #224 Posted May 14, 2012 Or maybe these are halcyon days, with so many people being super-rich and able to spend thousands and thousands on mountain bikes, sailing boats, golf clubs, watches, holidays, mistresses, cases of beer, cigarettes, and indeed cameras.... Yes, these probably are still halcyon days for the baby boomer generation of the West (I'd imagine you are probably 60ish yourself, Jaap) but it will not be the same for younger generations – far from it. I find it quite worrying that one needs to be super-rich to be able to spend 5000 Euro on a hobby or pleasure in these dark days. You can sneer all you want, Jaap but the reality for most of the normal salaried middle class that I know is that it would indeed be difficult to justify spending €5000 as part of a hobby. (Just for the record, lest I get accused of griping, envy, etc. I don't think the price of the 50 Summicron is unreasonable for what it seems to be nor do I have a problem with Leica developing it and offering it for sale.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted May 14, 2012 Share #225 Posted May 14, 2012 I agree with you 100%, Lars. I couldn't have put it better myself. I beg to differ. Everyone currently seems to focus exclusively on the price of the new Summicron, implying that Leica has lost or is about to lose their minds and forget about their loyal customer base. Sure this new lens is expensive, it's darn expensive, maybe it's even overly expensive. But hey, they have created the Summarit range of lenses not too long ago, a range of very, very good and still affordable lenses. Even if they decide to drop the regular Summicron in a while, there still is the Summarit 50mm, and it is even cheaper than the regular Summicron. Not to mention an extensive second hand market. So why complain? No one is forced to buy the new Summicron (or the Noctilux for that matter), so I don't quite understand the rage. It was always like that. Just think about it, who bought a Noctilux 1.2/50 when it was available as a regular item in the seventies? One could have brought up the same line of argumentation then. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TshawM8 Posted May 14, 2012 Share #226 Posted May 14, 2012 I am 76 and I have all the Leica lenses I am ever likely to need, or even want. So I do not have any personal axe to grind. I am out of the race. I am just worrying because I see a brand and a company whose products have been both unique AND desirable, go off in a dangerous direction. Carl Fabergé had a very fine workshop in Saint Petersburg. It made fabulous jewelry for the Tsar and his court, including those resplendent Easter eggs. I wonder what ever happened to the firm? Congratulations. Enjoy your blessings. Being young and stupid is not a crime, and at least the first problem is usually rectified by time, if not the second. The old and stupid man from he Kodachrome Age I understand your worries and am hoping this will not be the case. If, however, your suspected brand direction IS the case, then at least, it seems, their lenses will remain interesting You raise a good point with Faberge although, unfortunately, it is also important to consider the rise of Stalin and the fate of the House of Faberge. So long as a neo-Hitler doesn't give rise in Germany, we may be ok And thank you, Lars. It is true that I may, and probably will, make old and stupid mistakes in the future Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted May 14, 2012 Share #227 Posted May 14, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Along with a lot here, I try to spend my disposable income wisely and carefully, if I buy a lens it will mean I have to scrimp elsewhere (holidays, meals out, other kit or pay less off the mortgage etc) I have dusted off a 2000 Leica catalogue with hand written prices on a number of lenses and having checked the RPI's and inflation the prices today are perhaps 30-50% more expensive than they were adjusting for inflation. Efficiencies usually help reduce so no question from a distance Leica are making good margins. I can live with current prices, just. But for me £5k on a summicron is an awful lot. I do think we will see sufficient demand from the Asian markets to allow this trend to continue It won't stop me coveting the shiney and new, I have wanted an Aston Martin Vanquish since they came out, sadly I am no closer to buying now than I was then....maybe I'll be saying the same about thier 'new' 35 this September. Any votes for the 35 APO exceeding £7k ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 14, 2012 Share #228 Posted May 14, 2012 Don't worry. It will disappear. Just like the 24 and 21mm Elmarit lenses did. The old man from the Kodachrome Age That is nonsense, Lars. Super Elmars were introduced as replacements. And are in a comparable price range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 14, 2012 Share #229 Posted May 14, 2012 I am just worrying because I see a brand and a company whose products have been both unique AND desirable, go off in a dangerous direction. Carl Fabergé had a very fine workshop in Saint Petersburg. It made fabulous jewelry for the Tsar and his court, including those resplendent Easter eggs. I wonder what ever happened to the firm? Alive and kicking, thank you very much... FABERG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 14, 2012 Share #230 Posted May 14, 2012 That is nonsense, Lars. Super Elmars were introduced as replacements. And are in a comparable price range. Such a rationale would justify the replacement of the non-apo Summicron 50 by the Summarit 50 i'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted May 14, 2012 Share #231 Posted May 14, 2012 That is nonsense, Lars. Super Elmars were introduced as replacements. And are in a comparable price range. But you must admit that it's a bit daft for Leica to sell 6 different 50mm lenses. I could see the existing Summicron being dropped and people being pointed at the Summarit if they wanted a 'budget' lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted May 14, 2012 Share #232 Posted May 14, 2012 Such a rationale would justify the replacement of the non-apo Summicron 50 by the Summarit 50 i'm afraid. I was thinking - and posted - exactly the same thing <grin>. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted May 14, 2012 Share #233 Posted May 14, 2012 Alive and kicking, thank you very much... FABERG I think you mean "recently resurrected". The original Fabergé company, workshops and workforce didn't survive the Revolution. In the interim the brand went very far downhill: do you remember Brut toiletries? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted May 14, 2012 Share #234 Posted May 14, 2012 Yes, these probably are still halcyon days for the baby boomer generation of the West (I'd imagine you are probably 60ish yourself, Jaap) but it will not be the same for younger generations – far from it. Absolutely. The age at which "normal" younger people can even think about buying their own home has gone up by about 15 years, since I was a younger person. Both of my children are in their mid twenties. If I were to suggest that either of them buy their own home, they would just stand there and laugh at me. Tne average first time buyer in this country is something like 37 or 38, today. That's how long it takes to save a deposit on a property - and that doesn't allow the purchase of 20,000 Euro of any hobby along the way. This will be the first generation ever of people in the west worse off than their parents. My children work bloody hard, for little reward. Both regularly work 12 hour days. Neither run a car, neither have skiing holidays, neither have two weeks in the sun in the summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 14, 2012 Share #235 Posted May 14, 2012 You are comparing a company that was actually totally bankrupt then (and believe me, it was. The factory did not even have the money to print brochures and had to skimp in the canteen) with a company that is healthy and making a decent, but not excessive profit now. Now please tell me, should they really have committed suicide to please the wallets of some customers by not raising the margins? Quite apart from the fact that the prices of the optical glass they use has risen dramatically, sometimes by hundreds of percents. Some of the lens elements up to thousand Euro each. Along with a lot here, I try to spend my disposable income wisely and carefully, if I buy a lens it will mean I have to scrimp elsewhere (holidays, meals out, other kit or pay less off the mortgage etc) I have dusted off a 2000 Leica catalogue with hand written prices on a number of lenses and having checked the RPI's and inflation the prices today are perhaps 30-50% more expensive than they were adjusting for inflation. Efficiencies usually help reduce so no question from a distance Leica are making good margins. I can live with current prices, just. But for me £5k on a summicron is an awful lot. I do think we will see sufficient demand from the Asian markets to allow this trend to continue It won't stop me coveting the shiney and new, I have wanted an Aston Martin Vanquish since they came out, sadly I am no closer to buying now than I was then....maybe I'll be saying the same about thier 'new' 35 this September. Any votes for the 35 APO exceeding £7k ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted May 14, 2012 Share #236 Posted May 14, 2012 I feel these are dangerous waters for Leica, and believe that the APO Summicron pricing is the first visible sign that the new ownership group expects, or perhaps demands, profit margins well in excess of what has been achieved in the past. I believe that the reason for this is to justify a sale price for the company in 24-36 months well in excess of normal valuations. The "luxury" multiplier I believe is being put to the test, as I fear it is too tempting to resist. These are not long term strategies, but rather the setup to a quick turn and burn. I fear that Leica has lost sight of their past customers. $7200 for a 50/2 35mm format lens? That's not aimed at working pros, or middle class enthusiasts, that's aimed at the luxury market. We can argue all day long about how expensive it is for Leica to build this new lens but I will continue to believe that the bill of materials and assembly and test costs are no more than the $4000 Summilux ASPH. We will see soon enough, as Photokina is just four months away and I fully expect Leica to unveil an M10 in the $10K-$12K price range (not counting optional EVF). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted May 14, 2012 Share #237 Posted May 14, 2012 You are comparing a company that was actually totally bankrupt then (and believe me, it was. The factory did not even have the money to print brochures and had to skimp in the canteen) with a company that is healthy and making a decent, but not excessive profit now. Now please tell me, should they really have committed suicide to please the wallets of some customers by not raising the margins? Quite apart from the fact that the prices of the optical glass they use has risen dramatically, sometimes by hundreds of percents. Some of the lens elements up to thousand Euro each. It does, however, suggest that current Leica pricing is not really based on cost, but there's a big part of 'what the market will pay' involved. Costs of production have not gone up that much since the dark days of '05 -- when many of the identical Leica lenses were significantly less expensive. And frankly, there's nothing unethical about Leica using demand as a factor for price; people are free to pay or not as they wish, and there's plenty of less expensive options from Leica and others. But this has led people believe -- right or wrong -- that there is exorbitant mark up on this lens. No one outside of Leica know for sure, not you, not me, although historical prices suggest that Leica is making a healthy profit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Studio58 Posted May 14, 2012 Share #238 Posted May 14, 2012 This will be the first generation ever of people in the west worse off than their parents. The Baby Boomer generation (BBG) then is essentially book-ended by the Great Depression and whatever the current financial crisis turns out to be..... and I have been extremely pessimistic from its very start. So as it stands, the BBG has arguably enjoyed the best financial conditions, and associated benefits, in history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted May 14, 2012 Share #239 Posted May 14, 2012 Agreed. 100%. To my mind, the absolute best year ever to have been born, in the west, was probably 1948. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted May 14, 2012 Share #240 Posted May 14, 2012 Back to the topic, I don't get all of this griping about Leica's new top end offerings and 'where Leica is going'. They are clearly niche products compared with the rest of the M-system. Leica needs to prosper like any other business, and to buy time until new products are ready for release, and to develop new technologies. Let's put these new product's prices into perspective. The MM is essentially the same price as the M9P for those who want a B&W camera. There is a price range of M-lenses from $US1,500 to $US11,000* (interestingly the cheapest and the most expensive are 50mm). The more expensive lenses are the WATE, 21 & 24 Summiluxes, APO-50 Summicron ASPH, and the Noctilux ($US6,200 to $US11,000 in increasing order). The new 50 Summicron is much the same price as the 21 and 24mm Summiluxes. Esoteric/exotic lenses which push the boundaries of technology are there for those who want or need them. That technology and expertise, as in all other areas, eventually filters down to improve 'everyday' products. Look at the improved optical performance of Leica's standard lenses compared to the esoterica of last century. So we all benefit in the long run. In the meantime, no-one has lost out by the release of the new 50 Summicron, and most importantly our current lenses have lost none of their quality since May 10. One can still buy Leica's more modestly priced but superb standard lenses, including the Summarits, with outstanding results...(and of course there are the excellent Zeiss offerings). *example prices all from B&H website Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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