TomB_tx Posted June 24, 2020 Share #221 Posted June 24, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 hour ago, Ambro51 said: The baseplate engraving is fantastic. We must realize these cameras will endure, and be quite special. Is Mr. Kim still “on board” with these projects? I know as a builder.....sometimes very interesting complex projects are absorbing, challenging and enjoyable. After the fourth or fifth time, they are an exercise in earning a paycheck, little more. I know what you mean - from hobbies of building custom bicycle frames and acoustic guitars. Figuring out the process and creating tools and fixtures is interesting, but repeating over and over is drudgery. I made 30 bikes, and a handful of instruments before raising family took all my time. Raising kids was more interesting and challenging! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 24, 2020 Posted June 24, 2020 Hi TomB_tx, Take a look here working Ur-Leica?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
George Furst Posted June 24, 2020 Share #222 Posted June 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Ambro51 said: The baseplate engraving is fantastic. We must realize these cameras will endure, and be quite special. Is Mr. Kim still “on board” with these projects? I know as a builder.....sometimes very interesting complex projects are absorbing, challenging and enjoyable. After the fourth or fifth time, they are an exercise in earning a paycheck, little more. Thank you for your comments. Regarding your question, I did visit Mr Kim last week to pick up the baseplate. I and my Korean Friend Peter even had lunch with him. He is presently doing a conversion for Mark and I asked about it and even saw that he was working on it during the prior visit. Yes i he is still taking orders is willing to convert more if they arrive. He rather enjoys to challenge because each one is different. I believe this is true because as a final project back in the 70s at the Leitz Works, each student made their reproduction of the original with minor variations. He has also moved his place of work to a location nearer his home. It took eighty boxes and two days to move all. I must say moving is an art here in South Korea. Also there are special moving days. Special fortune tellers must be visited and after you give them all the information requested they sit there Thinking and come up with your moving day. Anyway I am sure this moving event will slow down the finishing of Mark’s UR that is in the process of conversion presently. I will try to post a photo of him working on it. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/138638-working-ur-leica/?do=findComment&comment=3998605'>More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted June 24, 2020 Share #223 Posted June 24, 2020 When you see him next, ask if he’d be willing to take my Leica Null Series 1st Model Replica, and converting it correctly to closer to the 2nd model. In that, I want the correct later finder, self capping “A” style shutter and the coated Anastigmat removed and optically replaced with an uncoated Elmar. Of course, recreating the Exact Null will involve shortening camera on the bottom by 1/8”. Leitz added this -1/8” to allow modern cassettes, I want it gone. I deal with it....••••Leitz made a second model but got all these points wrong. I think Mr. Kim may be interested in the project. I’m in No hurry, this is just an “idea float”.••••••geez that Null would look good all brassed. 😉 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted June 24, 2020 Share #224 Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) Hey I see a Stereo Camera on Kim’s workbench!! Alllllrighr! 🙂And, what the heck is This?? A cutaway UR for a jig? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited June 24, 2020 by Ambro51 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/138638-working-ur-leica/?do=findComment&comment=3998783'>More sharing options...
zwieback Posted March 13, 2021 Share #225 Posted March 13, 2021 Hallo, also thinking about converting an ur-dummy into a working camera. Looking through the net, I found replicas in all kinds of finishes, some are surely not made by Leica but even the once originally manufactured by Leica differ. Have they been produced with different finish or have some of them already been modified by the users? The original replicas seem to me to to have been entirely painted black. Is there a brass body/parts below the paint? Especially the lense barrel and focusing mech on some of the examples seen seem to be brass. Maybe one of you can help answering the questions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted March 13, 2021 Share #226 Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) The body is die cast aluminum, and the lens barrels are brass. The paint on the Replicas is a semigloss black, and the barrels and flange black also. The 1914 original has been worn smooth by contact, the brass worn down, and bears the nicks and scrapes of patina.. it’s the owners decision how they choose to use/present the camera. If you’re a box loving untouched camera fan, with a non working UR Replica.....the “shelf” won’t wear it down. If you’ve taken it to the “useing” platesu, it’s impossoble to keep the dull semigloss finish as the black polishes quickly. If you’ve admired the classic presentation of Oskars original, it’s just a matter of time for brassing and wear to occur naturally. If you Really like the look of the wear and patina....it’s your choice to replicate it “artificially”. ••••. Edited March 13, 2021 by Ambro51 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 13, 2021 Share #227 Posted March 13, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) If thinking of converting an UR replica to a working camera, I would be careful about selecting the base camera. I understand these were made by Leica apprentices as their "master work". If that is the case, the apprentice who built mine, is I suspect, now flipping burgers for a living. The internal components have just been poured into the housing but not connected. I understand that on some, the shutter, shutter release and wind on actually appears to work. On mine that is just not possible. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwieback Posted March 13, 2021 Share #228 Posted March 13, 2021 excellent, that's what I wanted to hear and also what I picked up from some of the posts. I have purchased an ur-dummy already and with a couple of Zorki parts lined up -not wasting a Leica- will attempt the conversion. Also estimated, that an 8mm slot for the shutter should work fine, applying the same tension to the rollers than on a Leica or Zorki. Might also try to swap to a gear driven film advance rather than the rubber belt drive, even though I quite like the simplicity of it and the fact to already get a build in clutch too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwieback Posted March 13, 2021 Share #229 Posted March 13, 2021 Hmm, hope I get a good one, that would clearly reduce the required amount of work. Will find out in a few days... On the other hand it means that every example is unique and hand crafted. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwieback Posted March 13, 2021 Share #230 Posted March 13, 2021 I saw that there was the question of the frame counter coming up during the discussion. I don't know if it was functional or just to be manually incremented after each shot. If it was functional, it might have been connected by a 90° gear to the film advance roller with a gear ratio that would corespond to 1:(1+1/50). Each shot the film advance roller will do a full revolution to get to the next frame, the counter will do a full revolution + 1/50th of a turn (for a 50 frame counter). This would be the same principle like for the later Leicas with their 36 frame conters. You could almsot think, that the reason for the 36 frames is the angle divison on the counter with would end up simply being 10°. What I just cannot see is how this connection between frame counter and advance roller would we integrated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 13, 2021 Share #231 Posted March 13, 2021 If you read through the earlier pages of this thread, I seem to recall there was quite a bit of discussion on the frame counter. Has anyone ever taken an X-Ray of one of the original UR cameras and published it? That would be a very interesting image. If you see what has been managed with 3D tomographic imaging on the 200 BCE Greek Antikythera device, then the people who did that could do a similar job on the UR. It is a totally non-destructive technique. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwieback Posted March 13, 2021 Share #232 Posted March 13, 2021 no need for an x-ray anymore. After a walk through the forrest, I know now how it works and it is dead simple, typical for Barnacks ingenuity.... 😁 Interested? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwieback Posted March 14, 2021 Share #233 Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) So, after doing a few calculations, here is my theory about the frame counter: The magic word is worm gear Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I think this is what connects the counter to the film advance roller with a ratio of 1:50. If you look closely, on the drawing published for the camera, you can just identify the components and even takes their dimensions: A bit more in detail, here is the sproket that connects via shaft to the dial of the counter: The worm gear is indicated by a dashed line, like it should be on a technical drawing: The worm gear and the drive sproket have about the same diameter, maybe 7mm, this would lead to a very fine module (fine teeth) of the sproket to arrive at a ratio of 1:50 because the pitch of the worm gear needs to be very low. This again makes me think, that actually not a metallic sproket was used but rather a rubberized pully that was pressed against the worm gear. This would certainly not have survived the years since it was built, so maybe a reason why the mechanism was lost. The positioning of the dial could only be done like on the "Ur" because a routing to the top like for the Compur Leicas was not possible because it was already occupied by the advance nob. Movinf it to the right of the camera like on the other Barnacks could not have worked either because of the rubber ring connection, which would not have allowed for a precise counter due to its friction. To the back of the camera it would have been going through the film. So the only possible location would be the front. In respect to the width it was mounted, there are also restrictions. To the left, the sutters block the space. TO the right, again the film would be in the way. In terms of vertical position there was not much room either because the sproket needed to be driven by the part of the advance roller that would not be in contact with the film, which is only given at about half height of the roller. There is just one more thing about it, which is the direction of rotation for the dial. With a conventional thread (clockwise tightening) the dial would be counting down from 50, which I don't think was Barnacks intention because the instrument was more seen as an experimental tool to get the exposures for his film projects right. This probably lead to always varying film length being inserted. So I guess the worm drive had a left hand thread. I am now pretty convinced that this is how it was intended to work. It fits to the drawing and you come up with a working mechanism. It is incredibly simple because it only needs 4 additional parts: The sproket, the drive shaft the dial and a screw to fix it. The placement of the dial also fits perfectly to my understanding of how it all works. I hope we see a few replicas with working frame counters soon. Actually, being a newbe I have not even introduced myself: I am Marcel, live in Germany, 200km away from Wetzlar and I am working as aerodynamicist in the race/sports car busyness. I came to Leicas as being a passionate fotographer, adoring precision, hand crafted cameras. Recently I fell inlove with the very early Leicas and prototypes, reading Kisselback's excellent book "Barnacks erste Leica". I examined a Leica II in detail to understand how it all works and why it was designed like this and no other and how I would do it and what could be improved. This should be the way to my own (Leica) design, which I am still following. I already have a direction for my "new" old Barnack Leica. Open end... Edited March 14, 2021 by zwieback 3 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I think this is what connects the counter to the film advance roller with a ratio of 1:50. If you look closely, on the drawing published for the camera, you can just identify the components and even takes their dimensions: A bit more in detail, here is the sproket that connects via shaft to the dial of the counter: The worm gear is indicated by a dashed line, like it should be on a technical drawing: The worm gear and the drive sproket have about the same diameter, maybe 7mm, this would lead to a very fine module (fine teeth) of the sproket to arrive at a ratio of 1:50 because the pitch of the worm gear needs to be very low. This again makes me think, that actually not a metallic sproket was used but rather a rubberized pully that was pressed against the worm gear. This would certainly not have survived the years since it was built, so maybe a reason why the mechanism was lost. The positioning of the dial could only be done like on the "Ur" because a routing to the top like for the Compur Leicas was not possible because it was already occupied by the advance nob. Movinf it to the right of the camera like on the other Barnacks could not have worked either because of the rubber ring connection, which would not have allowed for a precise counter due to its friction. To the back of the camera it would have been going through the film. So the only possible location would be the front. In respect to the width it was mounted, there are also restrictions. To the left, the sutters block the space. TO the right, again the film would be in the way. In terms of vertical position there was not much room either because the sproket needed to be driven by the part of the advance roller that would not be in contact with the film, which is only given at about half height of the roller. There is just one more thing about it, which is the direction of rotation for the dial. With a conventional thread (clockwise tightening) the dial would be counting down from 50, which I don't think was Barnacks intention because the instrument was more seen as an experimental tool to get the exposures for his film projects right. This probably lead to always varying film length being inserted. So I guess the worm drive had a left hand thread. I am now pretty convinced that this is how it was intended to work. It fits to the drawing and you come up with a working mechanism. It is incredibly simple because it only needs 4 additional parts: The sproket, the drive shaft the dial and a screw to fix it. The placement of the dial also fits perfectly to my understanding of how it all works. I hope we see a few replicas with working frame counters soon. Actually, being a newbe I have not even introduced myself: I am Marcel, live in Germany, 200km away from Wetzlar and I am working as aerodynamicist in the race/sports car busyness. I came to Leicas as being a passionate fotographer, adoring precision, hand crafted cameras. Recently I fell inlove with the very early Leicas and prototypes, reading Kisselback's excellent book "Barnacks erste Leica". I examined a Leica II in detail to understand how it all works and why it was designed like this and no other and how I would do it and what could be improved. This should be the way to my own (Leica) design, which I am still following. I already have a direction for my "new" old Barnack Leica. Open end... ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/138638-working-ur-leica/?do=findComment&comment=4160310'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 14, 2021 Share #234 Posted March 14, 2021 I wonder to avoid having to go as high as a 50:1 ratio on a worm, where I think the pinion would need to be much larger than shown in the drawing, the drive to the worm gear could be slowed down by means of an epicyclic gear train. If say you could make the epicyclic 2:1, then a 25:1 worm gear is more realistic. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted March 14, 2021 Share #235 Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) It will me most entertaining to follow your progress. As to the counter, Barnack used “a simple ratchet”, and the dial was loosened and reset to 0 when needed. Mr. Kim did indeed reinvent the wheel and used a gear train to advance the film. Of course, he is also a watchmaker who has decades of experience and the tools needed. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! He was able to restore the shutter speed dial, giving about 1/150 and 1/300 speeds. He installed the proper 42mm Mikro Summar, and the ability to set the aperature easily. The camera is silky smooth in operation and has the Leica feel. Edited March 14, 2021 by Ambro51 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! He was able to restore the shutter speed dial, giving about 1/150 and 1/300 speeds. He installed the proper 42mm Mikro Summar, and the ability to set the aperature easily. The camera is silky smooth in operation and has the Leica feel. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/138638-working-ur-leica/?do=findComment&comment=4160433'>More sharing options...
zwieback Posted March 14, 2021 Share #236 Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) yes, saw those additional gears for the film advance in one of the pictures you posted earlier. This is exactly what it looks like in any other Barnack Leica and its derivates. I wonder if you would unscrew the center locking screw in the film spool you would find the axial spring like in the later cameras as well. The spool looks like taken from a later camera like the gears. sure it improves the function of the camera but like posted earlier, personally I like the simplicity and the combination of directly also creating a clutch when using a rubber ring. I have seen on another picture you posted that (without me having ever seen the Ur Leica, the tensioning mech was modified too with a partial sproket that would wind the tensioning roller more to finally arrive at only half of the exposure time. When I investigated closely how the later cameras were designed, more and more time I was surprised about how much of the prototypes was carried over to the final cameras. And, as strange as it is, it made me lose a bit the appeal for those prototypes. I also modified a camera to have the early slot width adjustment, that did not cover the film when tensioning, so before the two independent curtains were introduced. This was a quite simple task, because if you take, for example a Zorki, all you need is already installed in the camera. You just need to remove things and maybe rearange things slightly. This seemed stupid to me, just making a camera wrose but it lead to gather a better understanding about the whole design process and the reason why things were done the way they are. About the Ur-Leica I see things a bit different. I just like the idea of going out with a camera and only one shutter speed (kind of) just to see what happens. It makes it easy to not be focused on the final results but to already start with the attidue only to enjoy the process. If there are more details about this ratchet for the dial actiation I would be very happy to learn more about it. Edited March 14, 2021 by zwieback Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted March 14, 2021 Share #237 Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, zwieback said: About the Ur-Leica I see things a bit different. I just like the idea of going out with a camera and only one shutter speed (kind of) just to see what happens. It makes it easy to not be focused on the final results but to already start with the attidue only to enjoy the process. I agree. My #80 Camera likes TriX, smallest aperature and fastest speed on sunny days, that’s f16 @ 1/300. Often I wonder how Barnack used early slow Nitrate film with such good results. The slow speed and widest aperature gives you f 4.5 and 1/150. When he gave the camera to Ernst Leitz to take to New York, he told him to not bother with the focus, just use depth of field. •••. Keep in mind the UR was Not Barnacks first 35mm Camera. He built the exposure tester camera, which coupled to the Kino Camera and used the same lens. (Reference VIDOM #50 “Die Mutter der UR-Leica”. by Georg Mann) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 14, 2021 by Ambro51 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/138638-working-ur-leica/?do=findComment&comment=4160538'>More sharing options...
zwieback Posted March 14, 2021 Share #238 Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) wow!! I first have to comment about the pre Ur Leica! LOVE the hear and learn more about it too. I saw it first on a b+w picture probably extracted from the vidom but not in color yet. One replica was brough to the LHSA meeting at which also the Ur was shown but that's about all I saw so for from this camera. I indeed thought when looking at the camera that you could use this design and vary the shutter speed by replacing the sllliding shutter blind with different slot width, if it would be used as an external shutter. Before changing "exposure time" you would have needed to close the lense. Drawback would be that the lense would not be collapsible and this being a feature of the Ur already suggests, that compactness and pocketability was very important to Barnack. Regarding the low sensitivity of the availble films I totaly share your view. It alsomst seems to negate the sense of such a "hand held" camera if you cannot take pictures hand held due to camera shake and motion blur due to the required long exposure times in combination with the slow lenses - anyway, it worked for film, just... This is realy exciting, I like it a lot. Edited March 14, 2021 by zwieback Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted March 14, 2021 Share #239 Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) Yes, I built both the one you saw (which George decided to have built unpainted) and the one pictured. The shutter flick is amazingly consistent, and my best results are with ISO 6 film, which approximates early Kino film speed. The image is round, 25mm. While this seems odd, remember it was made to encompass the field shown in a cine frame of 18x24 mm. ••••There must have been a moment in 1911 when Oskar held this to his eye....and “the wheels” started spinning. ••••. Rigid mounting is essential, to which Barnack needed to go through the trouble to make the base flat so it could couple to the Cine camera. I made a bracket from angle iron to attach it to a tripod. This required a recessed “opening” screw, something he did Not do with the UR. (I always dig back to the root. I’m the kid who learned how to cut goose quills to make pens, and create ink from vinegar and steel wool, mich to the consternation of my high school teachers!) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Unfortunately I cannot make any more, as I closed my big shop and sold my metal lathe. So, only these two Replicas AND the Original exist. Leitz has hold of the Original, but chooses not to mention it, as questions exist about whether it’s parentage includes Zeiss. Old rivalries never die. Edited March 14, 2021 by Ambro51 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Unfortunately I cannot make any more, as I closed my big shop and sold my metal lathe. So, only these two Replicas AND the Original exist. Leitz has hold of the Original, but chooses not to mention it, as questions exist about whether it’s parentage includes Zeiss. Old rivalries never die. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/138638-working-ur-leica/?do=findComment&comment=4160563'>More sharing options...
zwieback Posted March 14, 2021 Share #240 Posted March 14, 2021 absolutly awsom! What a fantastic adventure to play with cameras and history to try to understand the origins of modern fotographie. So you use the slider at the front as a shutter? What do you think about the idea that it was an early compur interchangeable lense camera? The clamping might have serverd only to secure the lense with its leaf shutter. So this way, even though it was described in vidom almost as only a crudly made almost useless kind of housing as a prestudy to the Ur Leica, it might have not only just been the first camera for cine film but maybe also the first interchangable lense camera (for this format) too. I can easily imagine that taking a picture like you posted can mean tons of joy, a lot more than a higher quality shot of a modern digital camera while passing by. By the way, I also had a large fully equiped work shop (about 150m²) mainly for working on cars as a hobby. I moved because of job and my lathe and a lot more needed to go. I do miss my lathe badly on quite a few days since.... I am so familiar with the exact vita of Barnack but you are suggesting, that he might have build this first camera while he was still with Zeiss. Aynway, I get the impression that either a lot of amterial got lost (2 world wars inbetween) but maybe also not being entirely open to share information wih the public. I hear that they would sonn open their archies for the pubilc though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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