Rona!d Posted February 2, 2022 Share #16981 Posted February 2, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) During the time of production the maker in question switched from aircooled to watercooled two-stroke engines. One of his engine suppliers was Lycoming. That caused him BIG trouble. The story goes that the Lycoming workers were on strike and engine delivery got stuck. Due to that he delivered the new vehicles overhasty and untested to the clients and in many sand was found inside the engines (workers on strike?) which resulted in failures and bad reputation. He then stopped using Lycoming engines, switched to 4-strokes of another maker but his good reputation was down so the company had to stop building the car in question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 2, 2022 Posted February 2, 2022 Hi Rona!d, Take a look here Name this car..... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rona!d Posted February 2, 2022 Share #16982 Posted February 2, 2022 If we got stuck here I´d suggest to give another good hint. The maker was born in 1880 in Switzerland and died in 1970 in Massachusetts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted February 3, 2022 Share #16983 Posted February 3, 2022 Seems you guys gave up early. It´s a Kelsey Motorette M from 1911. Sold in 2015 at the RM Sothebys Auction in Hershey. https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/hf15/hershey/lots/r246-1911-kelsey-model-m-motorette/180782 I´d suggest Stuart proceeds as he was closest with "US made" and "Maxwell" (which shows a link to Kelsey as he was selling Maxwells before he made his own vehicle). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 3, 2022 Share #16984 Posted February 3, 2022 I wonder why this vehicle is so poorly documented. It is not mentioned in any of my reference books, neither Macbeth nor Georgano, the most comprehensive automobile encyclopaedias, have anything to say about it. I don't have Georgano snr's more comprehensive encyclopaedia covering just US makes, which might have a mention. Wilson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted February 3, 2022 Share #16985 Posted February 3, 2022 Took me some time to find more background info but I found period newspaper articles etc. There were two other Motorettes on RM auctions, the last one in 2019: https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/hf19/hershey/lots/r0047-1911-kelsey-model-m-motorette/759564 This example should be the most famous one as it had been restored early (with first hand knowledge of Mr. Kelsey himself) and shown on many classic cars events since the 1960s: https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/hf14/hershey/lots/r161-1911-kelsey-model-m-motorette/181974 I found information that there even was a special ricksha version for Japan (Motorette R-1) and delivery cars (model L + M). There were even plans with T. A. Edison to creat an electric version but that was never built. What I couldn´t find were drawings or details about his 1960´s patent for a 2-seater "Skycar" helicopter. (should be documented for those with access to patents). A period newspaper article from the year he passed (1970) also mentions that Cadwallader Washburn Kelsey invented the sway bar for automobiles. At least that should have been known about his contribution to the automotive world. I only knew about the 1919 patent of Stephen Coleman from Canada. If Kelsey was earlier that would make sense with his kind of 3W-vehicles . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 3, 2022 Share #16986 Posted February 3, 2022 Ronald, Tadpole three wheelers (2 front/one rear) don't usually have anti roll bars. I think this is because they tend to have very low centres of gravity and depending on the height of their roll centres, don't usually roll a great deal. Morgan made a total mess of the design of the front suspension on their modern three wheeler and the quickest look at it would make any experienced auto designer say: "That isn't going to work." The first versions like mine (April 2012) had horrible handling, rolled like a pig, had a dangerous amount of bump steer and these were not helped by fitting wholly inappropriate front tyres, made by Avon for motorcycle sidecars, which have very little in the way of sidewall stiffness. I have totally changed the geometry on mine both the wishbone lengths, the coil-over location, spring rates, shock absorber spec and the steering geometry. I have also replaced the Avon tyres with Excelsior Competition H tyres, made for type 35 and 37 Bugatti race cars and it now handles pretty well. My 1930 Morgan Aero-Blackburn SS Three Wheeler also did not have a front anti roll bar but that only had about 3cm of vertical front suspension movement, with the sliding pillar front suspension so no need to limit it side to side. An anti-roll bar would have also increased their tendency to tip over. They were usually raced like motorcycle side car bikes, with a passenger, to provide movable ballast. Wilson 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelG Posted February 3, 2022 Share #16987 Posted February 3, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Rona!d - thanks for an interesting puzzle which has as usual lead to a rabbit-hole of Google digging! I was amused to discover that his headstone reads “In the vanguard of those who lead us to the Moon”! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted February 3, 2022 Share #16988 Posted February 3, 2022 Wilson back in the old times this was new land to discover. Sway bars like we know today were not common on most vehicles pre-1920 if I got that right. Kelsey did some 4 wheel vehicles too, his first one was 4w. Maybe this patent was a left over from experiments. Center of gravity at his Motorettes was also higher than in Morgan 3-wheelers. Talking about 3-wheelers I will never forget the fun Mr Bean had or young Clarkson with Reliants in Top Gear. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted February 3, 2022 Share #16989 Posted February 3, 2022 vor 41 Minuten schrieb NigelG: Rona!d - thanks for an interesting puzzle which has as usual lead to a rabbit-hole of Google digging! I was amused to discover that his headstone reads “In the vanguard of those who lead us to the Moon”! Nigel, you always find most interesting side paths while digging, right? As Kelsey came from Europe like many US automotive pioneers it was interesting to see how they used their chances when meeting "investors". I think Kelsey did right not to come back to cars when he made money with his roto tillers. The interesting part of his successful company Rototiller I have learned was that he imported german made Siemens-Schuckert tillers (patent of "Von Meyenburg"), a company that also built cars very early. He improved that system for the rocky soils in the US and licensed the big machines to Graham-Page Motors Corp. He was one of the first who offered such machines in the US and they became a big success so that Deere & Company (John Deere is their brand) and many others followed that idea. Maybe only such guys can become a true "vanguard of those who lead us to the Moon". One day you might even see Rototillers up there 😉 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted February 4, 2022 Share #16990 Posted February 4, 2022 For those with interest in agricultural machinery history here a good overview of Konrad von Meyenburg. As a young man he combined a steam engine to his bicycle 😉 The success of Rototiller wasn’t possible without his invention. https://www.bungartz.nl/hist-meyenburg.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted February 4, 2022 Share #16991 Posted February 4, 2022 Stuart, your turn! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted February 4, 2022 Share #16992 Posted February 4, 2022 Thank you, Ronald, but why me? The guess about US made? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted February 6, 2022 Share #16993 Posted February 6, 2022 Okay - All the usuals. Extra points if you know where this one resides: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/119687-name-this-car/?do=findComment&comment=4377902'>More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted February 6, 2022 Share #16994 Posted February 6, 2022 Am 4.2.2022 um 15:38 schrieb stuny: Thank you, Ronald, but why me? The guess about US made? In an earlier post I said: "I´d suggest Stuart proceeds as he was closest with "US made" and "Maxwell" (which shows a link to Kelsey as he was selling Maxwells before he made his own vehicle)." 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted February 6, 2022 Share #16995 Posted February 6, 2022 Since this got lost at the bottom of the prior page, I'm posting it again: Okay - All the usuals. Extra points if you know where this one resides: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/119687-name-this-car/?do=findComment&comment=4378031'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 6, 2022 Share #16996 Posted February 6, 2022 Is it a Hupp Skylark? Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted February 7, 2022 Share #16997 Posted February 7, 2022 Not a Hupp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hektor Posted February 7, 2022 Share #16998 Posted February 7, 2022 Happy Birthday Wilson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 7, 2022 Share #16999 Posted February 7, 2022 8 hours ago, hektor said: Happy Birthday Wilson. James, ???? Not until July Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham (G4FUJ) Posted February 7, 2022 Share #17000 Posted February 7, 2022 Cord? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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