Name this car....

[Rona!d]

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Cute and small it may appear, but it´s a "full size 50% methanol biest" only top end drivers were allowed to race.

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[wlaidlaw]

Could this be the 1954 full width body built for the 6 cylinder Maserati 250F GP car (never used in anger?) but then re-used on a 1957 V12 250F T2 chassis? 

Wilson

PS My 1955 GP Year Book says it was raced at Monza with Jean Behra driving. 

Edited February 5, 2019 by wlaidlaw

[Rona!d]

Wilson, it´s an early "replica" of the 1955 Monza Maserati 250 F "streamline" of Behra. That "Monza works streamliner" #2518 was born as #2512 in 1954 (Ascari), rebodied 1955 into Streamliner and renumbered as #2518. 1955 was the first season they raced the original chassis # 2518 as streamliner, later destroyed and dismantled. I assume Hofer bought the chassis from Maserati in 1970 although he thinks he has bought #2510 which was never built as 250F. Maybe Maserati renumbered the remaining chassis as #2510. The original streamline body of #2518 went to scrapyard.

I shot it at the OGP 2011 or 2012 when they had four of five Maserati 250F together which was phantastic. When I took the photo it was with the later modifications (for example the larger windscreen with the vents which the car didn´t had at the Monza GP).

Here a video link to the car with it´s todays Austrian owner Egon Hofer (the guy in my photograph as well). You may know him, he´s racing since decades and owns some nice Italian racecars, incl. the Ferrari 330 P of Graham Hill and Jo Bonnier (24hrs Le Mans 1964, 2nd place), chassis #0818. That´s the chassis number which the Ferrari museum also claims to have (bought from an FBI drug dealer auction in the 1980s). Hofer says he owns his 330 P #0818 since 1967. Not sure if that story found a happy end 😉

 

Video

 

 

[wlaidlaw]

20 minutes ago, Rona!d said:

Wilson, it´s the 1955 Monza Maserati 250 F "streamline" of Behra. I´m not sure if it was made in 1954 (maybe the year of birth). 1955 was the first season they raced it.

I shot it at the OGP 2011 or 2012 when they had four of five Maserati 250F together which was phantastic. When I took the photo it was with the later modifications (for example the larger windscreen with the vents which the car didn´t had at the Monza GP).

Here a video link to the car with it´s todays Austrian owner Egon Hofer (the guy in my photograph as well). You may know him, he´s racing since decades and owns some nice Italian racecars, incl. the Ferrari 330 P of Graham Hill and Jo Bonnier (2hrs Le Mans 1964, 2nd place), chassis #0818. That´s the chassis number which the Ferrari museum also claims to have (bought from an FBI drug dealer auction in the 1980s). Hofer says he owns his 330 P #0818 since 1967. Not sure if that story found an end 😉

 

Video

 

 

Ronald, 

Does the 250F Streamliner Monza car actually have a 1957 V12 in it or still the original DOHC straight six?

I am not surprised about the story of the 2 x 330P Ferrari cars. Our 250LM cars, both the standard and the Drogo bodied one, had had clones made of them at some point, probably during post-accident repairs. With the first car we had to go to law and with the assistance of Ferrari Classiche, get ours declared as the real one. With the Drogo bodied one, we were on our own, as although this is one of the world's best known 250LM cars, Ferrari Classiche do not recognise it, due to the Drogo body but the copy had not been that well done, so we succeeded in having it declared a replica. 

Will look our another car tomorrow. 

Wilson

[Rona!d]

vor einer Stunde schrieb wlaidlaw:

Ronald, 

Does the 250F Streamliner Monza car actually have a 1957 V12 in it or still the original DOHC straight six?

Wilson, "should" be a straight six. The only driving 250F with a V12 I know is/was the one of the Werners (chassis #2531) and that is not an original magnesium V12 but the all alloy engine of the 350S V12.

The two ever built original magnesium/alloy head V12 engines should be in an Italian museum (not in a chassis). Two magnesium V12 were built, originally used in chassis #2530 (lost) and chassis #2531 (Werner car). So "in theory" you could make the original Monza 1957 Behra 250F from the italian museum engine and the Werner car.

But this has nothing to do with the streamline bodies, they used straight six in the old times, so a "replica" is perfect with a straight six.

Big "but": In the video Egon Hofer says it´s a magnesium engine of which 3 were made. I´m confused if a third engine was "found" and is now in his streamline chassis.  Hofer runs this car carefully, not racing hard. If he has a magnesium V12 in it that would be a dream come true, because the streamline body wasn´t bad, Paul Frere who test drove it, said it had potential and was sorry they went back to the classic bodies. Maserati listened to the old drivers who didn´t want it. If the works team could have proceed with developement and the F1 rules hasn´t changed I also think the magnesium V12s in a modified streamline chassis would have been successful on certain race tracks. For other tracks the straight six was the better engine because it didn´t need the high rev for full power like the original V12s needed. The V12s needed a lot of further developement.

 

p.s. Just saw #2531 isn´t with the Werners anymore. Sold in 2016.

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, Rona!d said:

Wilson, "should" be a straight six. The only driving 250F with a V12 I know is/was the one of the Werners (chassis #2531) and that is not an original magnesium V12 but the all alloy engine of the 350S V12.

The two ever built original magnesium/alloy head V12 engines should be in an Italian museum (not in a chassis). Two magnesium V12 were built, originally used in chassis #2530 (lost) and chassis #2531 (Werner car). So "in theory" you could make the original Monza 1957 Behra 250F from the italian museum engine and the Werner car.

But this has nothing to do with the streamline bodies, they used straight six in the old times, so a "replica" is perfect with a straight six.

Big "but": In the video Egon Hofer says it´s a magnesium engine of which 3 were made. I´m confused if a third engine was "found" and is now in his streamline chassis.  Hofer runs this car carefully, not racing hard. If he has a magnesium V12 in it that would be a dream come true, because the streamline body wasn´t bad, Paul Frere who test drove it, said it had potential and was sorry they went back to the classic bodies. Maserati listened to the old drivers who didn´t want it. If the works team could have proceed with developement and the F1 rules hasn´t changed I also think the magnesium V12s in a modified streamline chassis would have been successful on certain race tracks. For other tracks the straight six was the better engine because it didn´t need the high rev for full power like the original V12s needed. The V12s needed a lot of further developement.

 

p.s. Just saw #2531 isn´t with the Werners anymore. Sold in 2016.

Ronald, I have been told that the Magnesium Maserati 2½L V12 engine that was being hawked around last year, with an asking price of €1m, may actually be an ex-Cooper T81 F1 engine with a short stroke crank fitted. Having been reading in the papers about the shenanigans that JD Classic are alleged to have got up to, you come to realise that the classic car trade has not moved on a lot, since a certain short statured "gentleman" was creating classics in Brewer Street, Soho in the 1950's. 

Wilson

[stuny]

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Wilson?

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, stuny said:

Wilson?

Sorry about delay, trying to find one that was not too easy, that I have not posted before. Here is your next one. Usual Marque, Model and approximate year please. 

Wilson

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[Michael Hiles]

The grill suggests a Daimler - roughly 1920...??? Pure guess. But the hood ornament suggests a Delahaye. Time for me to keep quiet.

[wlaidlaw]

Delahaye correct but not made by Delahaye and known under dual names- model and approx year? 

Wilson

[Rona!d]

Good riddle. I wouldn´t have a direct answer without a deeper look in my archive. The only thing I know is, that Delahaye wasn´t the "top end, super luxury" maker in the 1920s. Their goal was good quality at lower costs like the other french "mass makers". Maybe there was some kind of cooperation. They even made a lot of trucks, especially in war times. They even made good taxis. Maybe this is a "better" taxi model.

I guess 1927-1931

 

Wait: Delahaye cooperated with Chenard & Walcker (+ Donnet + Unic) due to the mentioned cost reduction reasons. So this could be a Delahaye Berline Type 109. Maybe 1927-1929. Chassis and engine (1,5ltr.) Chenard & Walcker.

 

 

[wlaidlaw]

I think this basic model was sold by three, if not four French marques with various different engines and with different combinations of their names. The engines in turn, may well have been made by third party makers, in a similar way to the Coventry engine makers in England in the 1920's (Anzani, Premier, Climax, White & Poppe, etc). In France there was BNC, Violet, CIME, SCAP etc. The Delahaye would probably have been the most upmarket of the smaller engined cars, with the larger 6 cylinder engined ones sold as a different marque. 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, Rona!d said:

Good riddle. I wouldn´t have a direct answer without a deeper look in my archive. The only thing I know is, that Delahaye wasn´t the "top end, super luxury" maker in the 1920s. Their goal was good quality at lower costs like the other french "mass makers". Maybe there was some kind of cooperation. They even made a lot of trucks, especially in war times. They even made good taxis. Maybe this is a "better" taxi model.

I guess 1927-1931

 

Wait: Delahaye cooperated with Chenard & Walcker (+ Donnet + Unic) due to the mentioned cost reduction reasons. So this could be a Delahaye Berline Type 109. Maybe 1927-1929. Chassis and engine (1,5ltr.) Chenard & Walcker.

 

 

Ronald, 

Correct a Delahaye-Chenard type 109 Berline, 9CV/1500cc. It was also sold with a smaller 1100cc engine as a Donnet, Chenard and with a larger 6 cylinder engine and longer bonnet, as a Zedel. Since Donnet made some of the UNIC taxis, I am guessing that would be a very similar car as well. The engine may well be a SCAP or Donnet - not sure. The 1100 engine was possibly a Violet. This group of companies was the fourth biggest manufacturer in France in the late 1920's, after Renault, Peugeot and Citroen. It was only after the change in ownership in 1932/33, that Delahaye decided to move upmarket to make the sporty and often exotically bodied cars we think of today. I actually think the Delahaye 135S is a nicer car to drive than a Bugatti 57. 

Wilson

 

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[Rona!d]

Thanks for that one, Wilson. The grille is really nice, more than just standard (Chenard & Walcker were known for special looking grilles, the older ones are much more round). Year of made right in the middle of my guess (27-29), should be 1928 from the numberplate.

Will find a new car this night.

[Rona!d]

Sorry, here is the next one ...

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[NigelG]

Looks familiar in a 70s “not quite Pininfarina”-ish way but can’t place it yet....

[Rona!d]

Just to avoid questions: "Yes, it is the front of the car!" 😉

[NigelG]

Looks like a very early version of a “projector” lamp - think the BMW Z1 was the first time I saw these.....and the fairing-in / bonnet crease looks nearly right but the proportions look a tiny bit off...

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Rona!d]

Z1 is on spot. Well done, Nigel!

 

Same photo I cropped from. I guess there was no other part of the car you can hide the Z1 😉

 

 

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[NigelG]

Guess I’d forgotten how pedestrian the rectangular headlight element was next to the projector - it seems out of kilter with the “freshness” of the rest of the design at that time. Never did get on with the Camo leather option for the interior though.....