rami G Posted April 27, 2010 Share #21 Posted April 27, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Was he hesitating or rationalizing? Does this make a difference? I don't think so. AFAIK non-Leica users are welcome here and comparisons may be made between Leica and non-Leica stuff fortunately. I fully agree with that. If you will read what I wrote, I replied to his second post, (1.3 is just like 1.5 and any sub 500$ cam does better) in which there was no hesitation neither rationalization only something that rang the common bell of bashing (I might have misinterpreted the OP, as the next reply indicated). In my original reply, I didn't criticize the post, only in the second one, and I even quoted op's post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 Hi rami G, Take a look here Sony NEX as a Leica M8 alternative. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted April 27, 2010 Share #22 Posted April 27, 2010 ...If a non-Leica user posts on the Leica forum a post rationalizing why he is going to buy a non-Leica camera over a Leica camera- that is quit irrelevant to the Leica forum... Would it be relevant if he were a Leica user rationalizing why he prefers Canon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted April 27, 2010 Share #23 Posted April 27, 2010 Too understand my statement that high iso performance is overrated have a look at the exposure guide within following file: http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/ProfessionalFilmDataGuide.pdf M cameras are operated with wide angle, normal lens and short tele lenses only. This and the missing mirror allows for handheld shooting at quite low shutter speeds. According to the exposure almost all situations can be shot with ISO 400. Candle lit scenes -which I consider as low light photography- require 1/30sec @f2. From my own experience I can confirm that you will easily get sharp images with lenses like summicron 28 or summilux 50 at that speed. Good high iso performance is of advantage if you are using long telelenses with a wide open aperture of 2.8 "only" and when you require shutter speeds below 1/200sec to handheld and stop action. That is why it is much more important for DSLRs. Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rami G Posted April 27, 2010 Share #24 Posted April 27, 2010 Would it be relevant if he were a Leica user rationalizing why he prefers Canon? I am not sure what we are arguing about. I am not Leica police and I don't tend to tell people what to post. I asked the poster about the point of posting here a particular post- arguing against Leica on the basis that any sub 500$ camera would give a better image quality. It turned out that I missed the op's point, you understood me as denying the legitimacy of posts by non-Leica users, you missed my point (no doubt both the op and myself are partially responsible for such minor misunderstanding). Is it very important for you to disagree with me about my initial claim (i.e. that it might be pointless to use this forum to argue that an GF-1 for example, is better that an M8, that is, if one is already convinced that it is better?) You might even convince me on that one. I reacted as I did not out of some deep ideology, or a well articulated line of reasoning... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted April 27, 2010 Share #25 Posted April 27, 2010 Too understand my statement that high iso performance is overrated have a look at the exposure guide within following file: Good high iso performance is of advantage if you are using long telelenses with a wide open aperture of 2.8 "only" and when you require shutter speeds below 1/200sec to handheld and stop action. That is why it is much more important for DSLRs. Regards Steve High iso performance improves versatility. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted April 27, 2010 Share #26 Posted April 27, 2010 You're not spending enough on your cars... I figure that if my car is worth more than my camera, my priorities are out of order. ... The Sony sensor should be one of the best high ISO APS sensors on the market. What's the basis for this statement? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khiromu Posted April 27, 2010 Share #27 Posted April 27, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) An alternative can only be an alternative. It will never replace the original. If you like range finder, there is only M8/M9 or R-D1 series. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 27, 2010 Share #28 Posted April 27, 2010 ...Is it very important for you to disagree with me about my initial claim (i.e. that it might be pointless to use this forum to argue that an GF-1 for example, is better that an M8, that is, if one is already convinced that it is better?) You might even convince me on that one. I reacted as I did not out of some deep ideology, or a well articulated line of reasoning... I do think that some cheaper cameras like the G1 can be better than the M8 in some circumstances but it's not what i think that counts it is that we can express freely our opinions according to the rules of this good forum w/o being bothered by statements reading to the effect that what we say is pointless for whatever reason. I we agree on this i'm totally happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rami G Posted April 27, 2010 Share #29 Posted April 27, 2010 I do think that some cheaper cameras like the G1 can be better than the M8 in some circumstances but it's not what i think that counts it is that we can express freely our opinions according to the rules of this good forum w/o being bothered by statements reading to the effect that what we say is pointless for whatever reason. I we agree on this i'm totally happy. It is starting to look like we don't agree about it because you are very easily typing that but you don't let me go after 3 posts in which I explained my initial comment. What makes it so difficult for you to let go of it? are you conscious of your acting like the neighborhood sheriff? Have you noticed that my communication with the op was smooth and to the point from the beginning to end and it seems that nobody but you being concerned by my VERY specific comment, along that exchange,replying to a very specific statement? And, ps, just some logic- isn't the burden of proof on you now, to explain what is, after all, the limit of that "freedom of expressing our opinions" that makes my particular comment outside the scope of that right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 27, 2010 Share #30 Posted April 27, 2010 ...isn't the burden of proof on you now, to explain what is, after all, the limit of that "freedom of expressing our opinions" that makes my particular comment outside the scope of that right? If you insist, the limit is disrespect and your comments were uncalled for when you asked why the OP was posting here and stated that he's welcome not to join the Leica community. Now i'm not a moderator here and i was probably wrong to act like a 'neighborhood sheriff' to quote your fun expression so i suggest that we agree to differ on that point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted April 28, 2010 Share #31 Posted April 28, 2010 I am not sure what we are arguing about. ... Neither are the rest of us. You've both made your points and made valid arguments to back them up. Maybe you could switch to debating beers or something? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted April 28, 2010 Share #32 Posted April 28, 2010 TIme out guys, please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 28, 2010 Share #33 Posted April 28, 2010 Yes sorry folks enough said from me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottocrat Posted April 28, 2010 Share #34 Posted April 28, 2010 People like me are interested in compact cameras like those Sonys. We're expecting something like that from Panasonic and/or PanaLeica. Isn't the Leica X1 exactly what you're looking for? I don't see that the M8 goes up against this rumoured Sony at all. Apples and pears. Clean high ISO (something higher than 320) is my tipping point. They can add whatever features they want to the future Ms, but I'm not buying a new M until it can shoot an ISO 1250 that looks and behaves like today's 160. Full-frame? Eh, OK. 17MP. Eh, OK. No cut filters? Eh, OK. Etc. and etc. I'm willing to wait and will be a while. Very much agree that clean high ISO is highly desirable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 28, 2010 Share #35 Posted April 28, 2010 Isn't the Leica X1 exactly what you're looking for?... The X2 perhaps, with interchangeable lenses and a viewfinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rami G Posted April 28, 2010 Share #36 Posted April 28, 2010 Neither are the rest of us. You've both made your points and made valid arguments to back them up. Maybe you could switch to debating beers or something? Thank you ; >) Honestly, I don't know how this whole thing developed the way it did... regarding the beer, I am always happy for a beer, but I need a day or so to recover as I got a book in my head when I was kind enough to reveal to my girlfriend what is it that I am getting back to the computer every 5 minutes, for... ; >) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted April 28, 2010 Share #37 Posted April 28, 2010 The need for high iso is highly overrated. Regards Steve Well said. Photographers are fast making themselves victims of peer pressure. The places we go and the things we do haven't changed an awful lot since the beginnings of miniature photography, so why now does photography come to a dead stop because ones preferred camera can't make darkness seem like daylight? I can't wait to see the bland images from all these 'new' photo opportunities that will suddenly appear when 12,000 ISO is the norm..........while in the meantime photographic history exhibits what was, and still is, possible at 400 ISO. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 28, 2010 Share #38 Posted April 28, 2010 Neither are the rest of us. You've both made your points and made valid arguments to back them up. Maybe you could switch to debating beers or something? In this country we don't debate beers, we perform magic: making it disappear. Not in the morning though, and I'm known as the fuel efficient model, due to lack of training So another thing: have you seen the big-ugly (SLR type retrotele design) fix focus lens on the NEX? That's a calory rich pancake of a 16mm focal lenth And why? Because it lacks the genius offset microprisms in the corners of the chip, that we all have. When in university many years ago I was lucky to get a SWC as a true bargain and used it for a long time. Since Leica got afraid of their own courage and brought out a crippled entry level camera... (there just was a enthusiast-prosumer week-end in Mainz and a pro&prosumer day yesterday in Frankfurt, and incidently guys I know worked at adjacent stands and told me about more testing even of the Apo-Tele-Elmarit than of the X1) ...it's probably futile to suggest another entry level Leica, this time without competition: All what's inside the M8 without a rangefinder at all in a magnesum alloy or durable plastic simple body priced as the X1 (or even as a second hand M8 in good shape) hence having a new cam guaranty - for wide-angle use. "Lesen schützt vor erfinden" I read about this idea in many threads and I think it is a very good one, worthy to get it's reality check by more people expressing interest for it. PS: Will I try to put my 50Lux, 75Cron & 135Apo on the NEX since the Samsung's too thick? Can't wait! Are the Noct guys excited? Sure, but being able to spend so much for a 50mil is the result of being shrewd businessmen, so they won't show it untill they got it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottocrat Posted April 28, 2010 Share #39 Posted April 28, 2010 Photographers are fast making themselves victims of peer pressure. The places we go and the things we do haven't changed an awful lot since the beginnings of miniature photography, so why now does photography come to a dead stop because ones preferred camera can't make darkness seem like daylight? I can't wait to see the bland images from all these 'new' photo opportunities that will suddenly appear when 12,000 ISO is the norm..........while in the meantime photographic history exhibits what was, and still is, possible at 400 ISO. Steve Wouldn't you say that the Leica community, by and large, tends to get itself all hot and bothered over bright lenses? Who among us would say no to an affordable Noctilux? Right? I'm right. And yet you say we're succumbing to peer pressure for getting excited about improvements in sensor technology that would let us take hand-held noise-free pictures in night-time situations.... Tell me what's wrong with this picture. Is this the whole analogue-good-digital-bad thing again? Because I fail to see why any photographer would not want to have access to noise-free high ISO. Technology that extends the photographer's options and lets him take photos that were previously closed to him: what's not to like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlindstrom Posted April 29, 2010 Share #40 Posted April 29, 2010 Well said. But also agreeing with the previous poster. High iso is nice, but not critical. Of course having clean high is would save us a good penny as well, since we'd get to buy cheaper lenses.. but then that leads into Leica moving closer and closer to nikon & canon territory where most ppl shoot cheap lenses and exchange their cameras every year for yet some more high iso performance.. hmm, don't think I like that grim picture of the future either.. Surely would end up putting Leica out of business. So guess we want a good balance between good reasonable iso's AND high speed lenses? Maybe that iso 1250 or maybe iso 1600 should be good and then combine that with the luxes wether summi or nocti. I don't know, somebody else can be the judge on what is reasonable iso and what is not Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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