Sony NEX as a Leica M8 alternative

[ottocrat]

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High iso is nice, but not critical. Of course having clean high is would save us a good penny as well, since we'd get to buy cheaper lenses.. but then that leads into Leica moving closer and closer to nikon & canon territory where most ppl shoot cheap lenses and exchange their cameras every year for yet some more high iso performance..

 

I don't agree with your reasoning that good high ISO performance means less interest in wide aperture lenses. Fast, bright lenses offer more to the creative photographer than just low-light performance. It's not a zero-sum game. It's OK to want clean high ISO *and* fast, bright optics.

 

Nor do I follow your logic when you say that improving high ISO performance would move Leica into Canikon territory with faster product replacement cycles. The M9 has much better high ISO performance than the M8 - was the M9 a move downmarket?

 

Leica is a premium brand, and that brand is built on offering photographers the very best optical technology. Leica has moved into selling digital cameras, if it wants to stay at the very top end of the market then it can't fall back on its reputation for optics alone; the electronics have to compete with the best that other manufacturers have on the market.

[jlindstrom]

I do understand that for many photogs the reason for faster lenses also come down to more creative liberties with regards to dof etc etc. However large part of amateurs either don't care for shallow dof or understand what it's for. For them faster lenses are about faster shutter speeds and it is in this respect that high iso makes way for slower and cheaper lenses. I'm not claiming to be an expert myself on these matters as I'm not, but from the limited experiences and discussions I've had with friends etc this is sadly true. Of course most ppl aren't into Leicas either feeling they're old fashioned and difficult with all manual functions. With that one could claim that most Leica users should know better..

 

My logic about Canikon Leica relation getting closer isn't so much about Leica wanting to do so, but if we were to _assume_ that my grim idea on slower lenses etc would come to be, then Leica would propably follow the money and produce slower and cheaper lenses to feed the demand.. It's not about Leica per se wanting to up their pace in replacement cycles, it's more about ppl behaviour we're all witnessing in the Canikon crowd.

 

Let me stress this again, it's not something I'm predicting will absolutely happen but rather one possibility in the now so fashionable high iso game... high iso wars is the new megapixel war!

 

Personally I like fast lenses and "don't mind" high iso.. I'd rather have them both. Unfortunately limited funds tends to slow me down on both

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[SJP]

Which is exactly the reason that Leica is happy to be in a niche market. If people are happy with large DoF point and shoots then they are not suitable victims for the Leica bug (or any other high end camera). Leica doesn't care and vice-versa.

 

Side track: considering the high end audio equipment prices Leica's are still dirt cheap.

[jaapv]

This OP has been posted on a number of forums to push that Sony camera - Not that it has anything to do with a Leica M, the only relationship being that both take digital images. The term shill springs to mind....

[Erik_A]

This OP has been posted on a number of forums to push that Sony camera - Not that it has anything to do with a Leica M, the only relationship being that both take digital images. The term shill springs to mind....

 

A shill is person who is paid to help another person or organization to sell goods or services. The shill pretends to have no association with the seller/group and gives onlookers the impression that he or she is an enthusiastic customer.

 

No, I wish Sony would pay me! I am just interested in using M lenses, especially with a 28mm FOV equivalent digitally. I wish I could afford the M8 or M9, but sadly no.

[jlindstrom]

It's very likely these new sony's will be at least the price of m4/3 cameras. With that in mind they're not too far off from a 2nd hand M8 from a reputable dealer. So if your interest is with leica lenses and you'd like to have M8, then just save a couple of months more.. if you like to star cheaper, then get a 2nd hand vc lens for starters with the m8 and save some more for leica glass. then just sell the vc with minor to no loss..

 

//Juha

[tho3hite]

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I'm disappointed at the pounding that the OP has taken for his question. While he might be shilling for Sony it doesn't completely invalidate his question.

 

I love taking pictures with my M8. I started with M cameras about 10-years ago and was very quickly hooked. I owned the M6TTL and M7 cameras. For practical reasons I got rid of all my film cameras and now shoot only digital with my M8 or Canon 5D.

 

For a variety of reasons (crop factor, shutter noise, digital image noise, IR filters, inaccurate viewfinder lines) I've never been as satisfied with my M8 as I was using the M-series film cameras. I wind up shooting about half of my images with my 5D because of these reasons. When I shot film about 90% was done with my Leica.

 

The cost of the M9 makes me dizzy. There is no way that I can think about upgrading my M8 after only three years of use when I see the price of the M9.

 

When I started shooting Leica I went to a party and shoot a couple of rolls in parallel with a Nikon SLR and a M6 (both using 35mm prime lenses). I took the film to meeting with a bunch of photographers and put the unidentified rolls on a light table. Everyone liked the Leica shots better-including Nikon's sales representative.

But as the Nikon rep justly pointed out the difference in image quality was very small compared to the difference in price which was about 300% higher for the Leica system.

 

Lately I've been wondering if I couldn't get along quite nicely with my 5D SLR and a second camera like a Panasonic GF-1 or Olympus PEN for those times when the 5D was just too bulky. I'm seriously thinking of selling my M8 and putting my lenses into storage to wait for a future digital M that I can both afford and be more content using.

 

The M8 hasn't won me over and at 7,000 USD the M9 won't either. I would be nice to see a thoughtful discussion of what others cameras may be appealing to a photographer reluctantly giving up on digital M cameras for the time being.

 

Who's to say that the expected Sony can't be that camera?

[Erik_A]

Pretty nice specs:

http://sonyalpharumors.com/continually-updated-sony-nex-cameras-announced/

 

http://phototwist.com/sony-nex-3-review/ (select the text and photos from this and paste it into a Word file to see the images correctly)

Edited May 11, 2010 by Erik_A

[hoppyman]

Erik if this rumoured camera that you like actually gets to market and then if it has an adaptor to let you use M lenses you might be able to have a useful discussion here. In the meantime, perhaps you can ask on a Sony forum why you shouldn't get an M8?

[FiZZ]

I agree I love Leica, however I don't really want my street camera to cost more than my car and (with the M8) have worse high ISO performance than a $500 camera. The crop factor 1.3 vs 1.5x is similar. The Sony sensor should be one of the best high ISO APS sensors on the market.

 

I am yet to see a Sony camera that has good performance over 800 ISO. The Alpha series has terrible results over 400 from what I remember in sample pictures. So I for one will NOT be looking forward to something like this.

[lct]

Pretty nice specs: Sony NEX cameras announced - Sony NEX-3 review...

Interesting thanks but where is the viewfinder? Is it just a chimping machine or will it fit an OVF or EVF as expected?

[luigi bertolotti]

Sony's site illustrates at the moment, only a optical viewfinder - 16 mm focal - the flange to sensor distance is VERY low (18 mm it seems) and the flange diameter is high : I suppose no problem for a M adapter...

Specs are interesting... a very fine LCD of almost 1 MP... at first sight I personally do not like very much the look... a X1 with interchangable mount would be finer...

Edited May 11, 2010 by luigi bertolotti

[lct]

There is an OVF here: Optical viewfinder. Looks like a CV finder. Mandatory chimping for zoom lenses if i understand well.

[jaapv]

That is one ugly camera!

[peterv]

Ugly?

 

Who gives a **** about ugly

It's a photo-taking machine. (and it does HD video too)

Interesting for M lenses also! We'll wait and see.

 

If I want to look at beautiful camera's, I'll go watch my MP and M7.

[jaapv]

The market gives a great deal of **** about ugly. Why do you think industrial companies employ designers? If you want to sell stuff, it must look right. For many market segments it is even more important than the way the products function. It may be silly, but it is a fact of life.

[peterv]

Agreed. Of course looks are an important marketing tool. But modern industrial design in general looks to be going into a direction us 'older' guys do not like

I wonder what would happen if this NEX camera was shown to a group of people younger than 30 next to an M. Would the general public choose an M?

Or do you think the NEX looks more ugly than the Samsung? Or the Panny/Olly?

Me, I'm not that much interested in looks anymore. I want the camera to just work.

Cheers, Peter

[jaapv]

The main thing about it is that it looks unbalanced with a shovel-like grip on the right and an oversized lens on the left with the rest of the body kind of diminished behind it. It must be quite unpractical to hold it with two hands. The shutter button in in the wrong place too I would say.

Edited May 11, 2010 by jaapv

[peterv]

The main thing about it is that it looks unbalanced with a shovel-like grip on the right and an oversized lens on the left with the rest of the body kind of diminished behind it. It must be quite unpractical to hold it with two hands. The shutter button in in the wrong place too I would say.

 

Well yeah, that is like your main thing

As for the oversized lens, I'd rather say the body is undersized

 

As for unpractical this, and the wrong place that, I wouldn't know. Both my hands are paralysed but I use every camera I want.

 

i'm outta here. Sold my M8 over a year ago...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[01af]

I am thinking about a new wide-angle take-everywhere camera and was considering an M8. I read that the Sony NEX-3 and NEX-5 will be announced on May 11th. [...] The 16 mm f/2.8 pancake lens will have a 24-mm-equivalent FOV.

 

I am thinking that for much less money I could get a decent wide-angle solution with much higher image quality than the M8 in a smaller size but with similar background blur as the M8 w/ 21 mm. Any thoughts.

Now May 11th has come, and the Sony NEX system has been announced today indeed.

 

The Sony SEL 16 mm lens is 24 mm-e (millimeter equivalent); the Elmarit-M 21 mm on an M8 is 28 mm-e. So a Sony NEX with the 16 mm lens will be significantly wider than an M8 with a 21 mm lens. DOF will be wider, too, because the field of view is wider and the image format is (slightly) smaller. To match the field of view of the SEL 16 mm, on an M8 you'd have to use the Super-Elmar-M 18 mm Asph. Then, DOF and background blur would be very similar.

 

The Sony NEX with SEL 16 mm will be significantly smaller and lighter than an M8 with 21 mm lens and more affordable too; background blur will be less; image quality probably will be in the same ballpark, not 'much higher'. While Sony's 14 MP sensor will outresolve Leica's 10 MP, the lens won't. Until proven otherwise, I guess the new SEL 16 mm lens will be pretty good but still not in the same class as a Leica Elmarit-M 21 mm Asph or a Super-Elmar-M 18 mm Asph.