M8 shutter fault - get Leica to repair it for free

[uptong]

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What is still not clear is:

 

How old the camera actually is.

 

How long had the camera been owned by the OP before the fault became apparent i.e how long after the dealers secondhand warranty had expired.

 

How many actual actuations it has actually had and as someone else said under what conditions have these been made (in it's entire life that is). You can get data from the Exif info on this as someone else pointed out.

 

All these points are pertinent and could undoubtedly have an affect on outcome.

[delander †]

I read your post about the reverse burden of proof but did not see anything about that in the Sale of Goods Act all 38 pages?

 

Jeff

[okram]

Many people here dont seem to understand that the OP is trying to do something for all M8 users- if they accept this as a malfunction that is a part of bad manufacturing by Seiko and then Leicas responsibility, even if we talk about batch of shutters, it would be a benefit for all M8 users.

 

I really think that any M8 user with old 1/8000 shutter (and who knows if this goes further) has a potential "shutter error" malfunction bound to happen.

 

lets not forget something- ANY M8 user (i dont know about M9) can replicate this "shutter error" message appear anytime. Try to (this is the first thing I did when this firmware appeared) put on advance/discreet and use a continuos on the shutter dial- this seemed to me as a good fast switch between these two modes.

 

M

[stunsworth]

I really think that any M8 user with old 1/8000 shutter (and who knows if this goes further) has a potential "shutter error" malfunction bound to happen.

 

In which case with the camera being released three and a half years ago why haven't we heard of more problems? Stuff breaks, that's life.

[uptong]

I read your post about the reverse burden of proof but did not see anything about that in the Sale of Goods Act all 38 pages?

 

Jeff

 

It was something I happened on while looking at a consumer related advice site, was a reply to one of the posts. As I said I am no legal expert but it is something that the OP should check out/query with his advisors may or may not be relevant in his case.

[Guest BigSplash]

In which case with the camera being released three and a half years ago why haven't we heard of more problems? Stuff breaks, that's life.

 

Steve you are certainly correct that stuff does break, but then it is also true that:

1. Some things are designed and built to last.
   
2. Some things are faulty in design or at least not fit for purpose and some well designed things are built in production incorrectly.
   
3. This forum has seen many issues with respect to the 1/8000 shutter ranging from firmware through to failure and pinholes / debris etc.
   
4. I remain suspicious that Leica introduced on the M8.2 a shutter that seems silkier, apparently is of lower noise (I do not see much difference) and is SLOWER.....Why did they do this?
   

I have the M8 and am very happy with it, but as sure as hell I would not want to see in 18 months time that my warranty has ceased and the shutter fails. I also am of the opinion that issues raised above about the number of actuation should not be an excuse for a camera of Leica's pedigree and price.

 

Leica used to be the reference standard for relaibility, and ruggedness ..in my view it still is. Compared to a high end DSLR it has no AF, No Aperture control, No mirror assembly, No complex menu software .....and it has a solid magnesium body. One would hope that at least the shutter provides longevity and reliability.

[uptong]

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I read your post about the reverse burden of proof but did not see anything about that in the Sale of Goods Act all 38 pages?

 

Jeff

 

 

Just tried to find the original post happened upon but cannot immediately find it again, however this link does refer to the burden of proof aspect as well, within the posts

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/vehicle-retailers-manufacturers/23827-sale-goods-act-buying.html

It should be noted that in this case the person was still within the six month period and therefore it was the dealer that had to prove one way or another. Does indicate what I had found elsewhere but in this instance was in the 'consumers' favour.

[jsrockit]

Many people here dont seem to understand that the OP is trying to do something for all M8 users- if they accept this as a malfunction that is a part of bad manufacturing by Seiko and then Leicas responsibility, even if we talk about batch of shutters, it would be a benefit for all M8 users.

 

This is how I see it...

[bill]

Many people here dont seem to understand that the OP is trying to do something for all M8 users- if they accept this as a malfunction that is a part of bad manufacturing by Seiko and then Leicas responsibility, even if we talk about batch of shutters, it would be a benefit for all M8 users.

 

I am picking up far more ego than altruism here...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk]

Hi everyone. Andrea Frankl who is 'in charge of customers for the UK' at Leica is dealing with my request. I've dropped her a mail tonight and will hopefully get something back tomorrow. Leica have been great in dealing with me so far, very courteous and understanding as you'd expect.

 

Cheers

[okram]

I am picking up far more ego than altruism here...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Well, important or not...my experience with Leica is such, that reliability is something they charge for, and don't provide. Lenses-certanly, but bodies- I'm not so sure.

 

Fact is that they are not assembled by robots...benefits from that could be seen...

 

 

M

[lct]

...Leica have been great in dealing with me so far, very courteous and understanding as you'd expect....

Better deal with God than with his Saints.

[mhoersch]

Maybe, this is the solution?

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/115325-warranty-extension-m8-m8-2-a.html

[bill]

Well, important or not...my experience with Leica is such, that reliability is something they charge for, and don't provide. Lenses-certanly, but bodies- I'm not so sure.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/115305-three-years-counting.html

 

There are two sides to every story.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[andybarton]

[*]This forum has seen many issues with respect to the 1/8000 shutter ranging from firmware through to failure and pinholes / debris etc.

 

Don't Nikon use the same shutter?

 

Have they had "many issues" as you describe?

[okram]

Don't Nikon use the same shutter?

 

Have they had "many issues" as you describe?

 

We can only presume that Nikon uses the same shutter.

 

They definitely don't use the same shutter cocking mechanism- and this, as many other things, can be the source of shutters failing. Maybe even firmware.

[hoppyman]

Originally Posted by BigSplash

[*]This forum has seen many issues with respect to the 1/8000 shutter ranging from firmware through to failure and pinholes / debris etc.

 

I don't follow this claim??

what firmware issues were ever reported to do with the shutter?

What pinholes/debris issues caused by deficient design? Surely you aren't harking back to 50+ year old cloth shutter blinds in old film M's?

If you get foreign objects in the blades, certainly they can be damaged for example by by foreign objects like film leaders, fingers and cleaning swabs or brushes.

That is nothing to do with any design weakness claims. The basic shutter unit is reportedly the same Copal unit as from the R8 forward. I think that there are very large numbers of these in use across many camera brands.

 

 

Obviously like a number of other posters here, I just don't see any justification to expect Leica to fix an out of warranty issue with a camera for free and especially when they haven't even be given a chance to inspect the camera to determine the cause of any problems as well.

I've dealt with the same helpful and courteous Customer Service representative (and the Division Head) previously. Personally I am very sympathetic to their difficulty in receiving a claim of this nature made in this manner with implied threat of legal action and negative publicity. Then we see comments labelling the M8 as a 'buggy piece of crap''. Not calculated to engender any sympathy with Leica enthusiasts here nor staff in Solms..

[Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk]

Geoff, these kind of comments are not personal. The M8 is buggy - it's not the slick high quality product that I had the right to expect. The point in that particular post that you are mentioning was made in the context that I have put up with a lot of these minor bugs because the image quality from the camera is satisfying.

 

However, now that the camera is inoperable these minor bugs feel like they were a warning of things to come. The M8 has been an extremely imperfect product, just look at it's history. It clearly was not tested properly before being released on the public as has been evidenced by the countless problems that have plagued it since it was released.

 

I am a Testing Professional and frankly, if I had been responsible for the testing of this camera I would be ashamed. So many bugs slipped through Leica's quality assurance process it's quite staggering. The precedent has been set that Leica's QA process is suspect therefore making me wonder, justifiably I think, is this shutter issue just another symptom of poor quality?

 

The fact that there are pages and pages of webspace dedicated to 'M8 issues' and that Leica themselves had to communicate a whole swathe of problems with the camera after release is proof enough that they are not testing properly. I just happen to have the issue of LFI where they dedicated the whole issue to M8 problems - even with the propaganda contained in it it was hard to make the problems sound good!

[farnz]

... extremely imperfect ... countless problems ... a whole swathe of problems ...

Daniel,

 

Your use of emotive terms isn't helping.

 

There are no degrees of perfection and the number of problems is a finite number so please don't artificially inflate the issue by use of this language.

 

Pete.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest PhotoWebb.co.uk]

Just out of interest for those who are not happy about this type of issue being discussed on an internet forum.

 

What purpose do you think a forum like this should perform? Should we only be allowed to say things like:

I love my M8

Leica make the best cameras in the world

Leica lenses are amongst the finest made

 

That would certainly seem to be the attitude of some of the people on here. The whole point in an internet forum is so that people can share information on a specific subject, in this case Leica cameras. Why shouldn't people talk about the problems they are experiencing?

 

The funny thing is, those that seem to be opposed to me sharing this information are taking part!